A Woman's Journey Palm Beach 2017 Luncheon Keynote: Life Off the Ice - YouTube
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00:00:05 00:00:06 Well, thank you.
00:00:06 00:00:07 >> Thank you.
00:00:07 00:00:09 >> This is an incredible opportunity.
00:00:09 00:00:12 Whenever I do this, I always say, let's have a conversation,
00:00:12 00:00:15 we'll let them listen rather than anything else.
00:00:15 00:00:16 >> She's the professional.
00:00:16 00:00:19 >> I have to say that starting this conversation where,
00:00:19 00:00:21 of course, I wanna have a chance for
00:00:21 00:00:23 us to talk about your experiences with depression.
00:00:23 00:00:27 I have to start as an 11 year old fan girl who watched you win
00:00:27 00:00:29 an Olympic medal in 1976.
00:00:29 00:00:31 >> [APPLAUSE] >> Wow, a long time ago.
00:00:31 00:00:34 >> Now, I can't skate but I knew it was a lot of work, but
00:00:34 00:00:36 I do actually think it's important for
00:00:36 00:00:41 the discussion of depression to sort of put it in a context of a life.
00:00:41 00:00:43 So, when did you start skating?
00:00:43 00:00:45 >> I started skating, is this on?
00:00:45 00:00:48 Are you okay sound wise if I move this over here?
00:00:48 00:00:50 I don't know. >> Maybe up a little bit.
00:00:50 00:00:51 I'm just very loud.
00:00:51 00:00:53 So that's- >> Well, and I'm talking to you and
00:00:53 00:00:53 it's over there.
00:00:53 00:00:56 >> Yeah. >> But anyway, just let me know.
00:00:56 00:01:00 So, I started skating when I was eight years old, and
00:01:00 00:01:04 it was on a pond in Connecticut.
00:01:04 00:01:05 Yeah, okay so let me.
00:01:05 00:01:06 My gosh.
00:01:06 00:01:07 >> I think you can.
00:01:07 00:01:09 >> I think I did. I think I-
00:01:09 00:01:10 >> Multi-skilled.
00:01:10 00:01:13 >> You'd think I'd know by now how to do this.
00:01:13 00:01:13 Is that better?
00:01:13 00:01:15 >> Yeah.
00:01:15 00:01:17 >> Sort of, no. [LAUGH]
00:01:17 00:01:18 >> I'd move it up a little bit.
00:01:18 00:01:19 >> Higher, higher?
00:01:19 00:01:19 >> Move it up a little bit.
00:01:24 00:01:25 >> Does that work?
00:01:26 00:01:27 >> Okay.
00:01:27 00:01:28 >> Sorry.
00:01:28 00:01:30 >> So you were eight years old on pond.
00:01:30 00:01:32 >> Eight years old on a pond.
00:01:32 00:01:34 I am the youngest of three.
00:01:34 00:01:38 And my sister and our neighbor were going skating and
00:01:38 00:01:43 we just grabbed any kind of skates that were in the basement,
00:01:43 00:01:47 and they sort of left me in the dust on the pond.
00:01:47 00:01:50 And I wanted to learn how to skate backwards cuz they were and
00:01:50 00:01:51 they didn't teach me.
00:01:51 00:01:55 And so, I thought, okay, I'm gonna learn how to skate backwards,
00:01:55 00:01:58 went home and begged my mother for lessons.
00:01:58 00:02:01 Eventually, she signed me up for group lessons.
00:02:01 00:02:04 And from the very first time I had a lesson,
00:02:04 00:02:06 I didn't wanna be any place else.
00:02:06 00:02:11 And I just fell in love with skating and
00:02:11 00:02:15 twirling around, and I was very shy.
00:02:15 00:02:18 I was quite surprised when you told me you were very shy.
00:02:18 00:02:23 And, I could be in my little bubble, and just twirl around and
00:02:23 00:02:26 skate around and be by myself with the music.
00:02:26 00:02:30 And it was just the place, I love the cold air.
00:02:30 00:02:33 It was just a place that I felt at home.
00:02:33 00:02:34 >> Very comfortable.
00:02:34 00:02:35 >> Very comfortable.
00:02:35 00:02:37 >> And so you started at eight.
00:02:37 00:02:42 Obviously, group lessons got beyond group lessons.
00:02:42 00:02:44 How old were you when you won the gold medal?
00:02:44 00:02:45 >> 19.
00:02:45 00:02:45 >> 19.
00:02:45 00:02:50 So for 11 years, skating had to be a primary thing.
00:02:50 00:02:50 >> Yes. >> How many
00:02:50 00:02:52 hours a day would you train?
00:02:53 00:02:59 >> It eventually became seven hours, about five, eight hours a day.
00:02:59 00:03:05 We had those compulsory figures that were very time consuming and
00:03:05 00:03:10 very precise and it took many years to perfect that skill.
00:03:10 00:03:13 It's not something that you can be a phenom and
00:03:13 00:03:14 do them perfectly overnight.
00:03:14 00:03:17 So, that takes a long time.
00:03:17 00:03:21 And then the free skating part, which is what I really loved,
00:03:21 00:03:25 we did that three hours a day, but the figures were five hours.
00:03:25 00:03:27 >> Five, so it's like doing piano exercises?
00:03:27 00:03:29 >> Yeah. >> You just have to do it.
00:03:29 00:03:34 And I bring all this up because there's a dedication and
00:03:34 00:03:38 also just a work ethic, that clearly you don't have
00:03:38 00:03:42 the success you've had without those things.
00:03:42 00:03:45 So, you're someone who could just work very hard, keep doing it,
00:03:45 00:03:46 not get distracted.
00:03:46 00:03:47 >> Right.
00:03:47 00:03:48 >> Okay.
00:03:48 00:03:52 >> But, I think the only reason I did was cuz I loved it and
00:03:52 00:03:53 I was comfortable.
00:03:53 00:03:54 >> Sure, but you had a passion for it.
00:03:54 00:03:56 >> Yeah, passion, yep.
00:03:56 00:03:59 >> So, I only say that as the backdrop because so
00:03:59 00:04:04 many people have ridiculous ideas about depression.
00:04:04 00:04:07 And some ideas about depression that if you're hard enough working and
00:04:07 00:04:10 strong enough and to that I would say, I don't know,
00:04:10 00:04:13 Olympic gold medal, that's pretty good.
00:04:13 00:04:16 So maybe you're hard enough working and you're strong enough that
00:04:16 00:04:19 we're gonna challenge that argument more than a little bit.
00:04:19 00:04:20 >> Okay, good [LAUGH].
00:04:20 00:04:23 >> So you're that person.
00:04:23 00:04:24 >> Yep.
00:04:24 00:04:26 >> When you look back on your life,
00:04:26 00:04:29 when do you think you first had depression?
00:04:29 00:04:30 >> I think back and
00:04:30 00:04:36 I don't know if maybe sometime during my earlier teenage years.
00:04:36 00:04:38 But because I was focused and
00:04:38 00:04:41 my parents were paying a lot of money for ice skating and
00:04:41 00:04:45 competition and coaches, so I'm not really sure where that.
00:04:45 00:04:52 But I think the first time was certainly after the Olympics.
00:04:52 00:04:56 Although, I didn't know it at the time, I just look back and
00:04:56 00:04:58 I thought, well now what do I do?
00:04:58 00:04:59 >> [LAUGH] Sure.
00:04:59 00:05:04 >> Here I've created this fabulous working performing competition,
00:05:04 00:05:09 achieve a life long goal at 19, and that's all I knew.
00:05:09 00:05:12 I didn't know how to do anything else,
00:05:12 00:05:16 and just standing there with no real goal or vision.
00:05:16 00:05:20 Or, isn't it a fairy tale?
00:05:20 00:05:25 You win the Olympics, and life is perfect, and it wasn't.
00:05:25 00:05:28 [LAUGH] I mean, it seemed like it should be.
00:05:28 00:05:28 >> Right. >> But
00:05:28 00:05:31 I think that's probably the first real.
00:05:31 00:05:34 >> I would imagine it would have been hard to sort out what was going
00:05:34 00:05:38 on though, because very few people had that experience.
00:05:38 00:05:40 I mean, you didn't have a whole group of people,
00:05:40 00:05:42 it's like when you won your gold medal, how did you feel?
00:05:42 00:05:46 I mean, it's kind of a very very unusual circumstance to do that.
00:05:46 00:05:46 >> It is, and
00:05:46 00:05:50 this is one little thing I have discovered a few years ago.
00:05:51 00:05:55 When you see the champions on the podium and
00:05:55 00:05:59 then the interviewer asks them, how do you feel?
00:05:59 00:06:05 And almost every gold medalist says, well, it hasn't really sunk in yet.
00:06:05 00:06:09 And, that's exactly what I had said about, to myself, well,
00:06:09 00:06:13 it really hasn't sunk in that I won the gold medal.
00:06:13 00:06:16 And it doesn't really ever sink in.
00:06:19 00:06:23 It happened in four minutes and out of a lifetime that's pretty-
00:06:23 00:06:24 >> 11 years of preparation,
00:06:24 00:06:25 4 minutes of performance.
00:06:25 00:06:26 >> [CROSSTALK] >> I did it!
00:06:26 00:06:27 And now what?
00:06:27 00:06:28 >> Yes, and now what?
00:06:28 00:06:29 >> Yes. >> Got it.
00:06:29 00:06:32 >> So I think, now I have to go back.
00:06:32 00:06:33 What was your question?
00:06:33 00:06:36 >> Well I was asking when you first, in retrospect,
00:06:36 00:06:40 because most people with depression actually have a long period of time,
00:06:40 00:06:43 on average eight years, ten years,
00:06:43 00:06:46 from depression starting to actually getting treatment.
00:06:46 00:06:48 Because it happens, and then they kind of come out of it.
00:06:48 00:06:53 It happens again, they come out of it, and then at some point they say,
00:06:53 00:06:53 what is this?
00:06:53 00:06:55 And I'm gonna do something about it.
00:06:55 00:06:56 >> Right, yeah.
00:06:56 00:07:00 >> What got you to do something or to say, wait a minute,
00:07:00 00:07:05 this is not how I usually feel, this is not how I usually am.
00:07:05 00:07:09 >> Right, so right after the Olympics, and
00:07:09 00:07:14 I sort of wandered around eating cuz I wasn't training.
00:07:14 00:07:18 I was offered all these wonderful jobs for, well,
00:07:18 00:07:20 ice skating jobs, which is great.
00:07:20 00:07:25 And Ice Capades, and so I was meeting lawyers, and agents, and
00:07:25 00:07:28 accountants, and costume designers,
00:07:28 00:07:33 amateur athletes didn't have any of those things in the 70s.
00:07:33 00:07:36 And, so I walked around in a funk, and then I went to
00:07:36 00:07:40 rehearsals with Ice Capades, and I was really fat, and now everybody
00:07:40 00:07:44 was under their breath saying, can you get her to lose some weight?
00:07:44 00:07:48 It was just a very difficult time and
00:07:48 00:07:53 then when I really first realized I needed
00:07:53 00:07:57 some kind of professional person to talk
00:07:57 00:08:02 to was when I was going through a divorce.
00:08:02 00:08:03 >> So years later.
00:08:03 00:08:04 >> Years later.
00:08:04 00:08:05 >> Years later.
00:08:05 00:08:07 >> Yeah, I was 32 then, maybe.
00:08:07 00:08:12 I had bouts, I always had work that I had to do.
00:08:12 00:08:15 So, once I was skating, and
00:08:15 00:08:19 my mind was off of, >> It helped you survive it?
00:08:19 00:08:21 >> It did, it absolutely did.
00:08:21 00:08:24 >> And it's true that with time, most people are locking up.
00:08:24 00:08:27 They go into it and then they come out of it, sort of if you
00:08:27 00:08:31 were busy enough it helped you survive til you came out of it.
00:08:31 00:08:31 >> Yes.
00:08:32 00:08:34 >> Although, I'm sure that was very hard.
00:08:34 00:08:36 It was much easier when you weren't feeling that way.
00:08:37 00:08:39 >> Yes, and I was well, I don't know.
00:08:39 00:08:42 I think denial is powerful.
00:08:42 00:08:44 >> [LAUGH] Yes, it is.
00:08:44 00:08:49 >> And that sort of wanting to be perfect is pretty powerful, too.
00:08:49 00:08:54 And so, I was always and I always had something, well not always.
00:08:54 00:08:58 Once I got into the skating and shows and performing,
00:08:58 00:09:01 there was always something really fun to do.
00:09:01 00:09:05 So I wasn't going home and woe is me, and
00:09:05 00:09:08 having to do dishes and drive carpool.
00:09:08 00:09:09 It was just me.
00:09:09 00:09:10 I was on the road and
00:09:10 00:09:16 we were all a bunch of [BLANK AUDIO] middle-aged kids.
00:09:16 00:09:21 I put it off, I figured out a way to put off the real feelings for
00:09:21 00:09:24 [CROSSTALK] >> So when you had this hit and
00:09:24 00:09:26 you said, okay I'm not putting up this anymore.
00:09:26 00:09:28 What was it like?
00:09:28 00:09:30 I mean, what did it feel like for you to have depression?
00:09:30 00:09:34 >> I think when I first started talking to a therapist,
00:09:34 00:09:38 it was more for certain marriage counseling.
00:09:38 00:09:38 >> Life.
00:09:38 00:09:40 >> Life, yeah.
00:09:40 00:09:45 And, that was when it was kind of discovered
00:09:45 00:09:49 that maybe I should try something.
00:09:49 00:09:51 >> Yeah to do more to have more intensive treatment.
00:09:51 00:09:57 >> Yeah, but I didn't really know, I never got a diagnosis early
00:09:57 00:10:02 on that it was That it was gonna be a chronic thing.
00:10:02 00:10:03 >> Mm-hm.
00:10:03 00:10:05 >> But now of course, years later I understand.
00:10:05 00:10:08 And I see much, many more episodes leading up to it.
00:10:08 00:10:14 But it was, I'm not depressed.
00:10:14 00:10:16 I just need some new, other project to do.
00:10:16 00:10:18 >> Well, let me ask you this.
00:10:18 00:10:20 Cuz I am very
00:10:20 00:10:24 concerned of how little good information is out there.
00:10:24 00:10:26 When someone said to you, your therapist, you know look,
00:10:26 00:10:28 I'm worried that this is depression,
00:10:28 00:10:31 I want you to see someone and think about other treatments.
00:10:31 00:10:35 What did you know about depression at that point?
00:10:35 00:10:35 >> Nothing.
00:10:35 00:10:39 I mean i knew people, you know, my family members that had it.
00:10:39 00:10:42 Of course, they treated themselves with alcohol and
00:10:42 00:10:43 all of those things.
00:10:43 00:10:44 >> A common choice.
00:10:44 00:10:45 >> Yes, heck I've done that.
00:10:45 00:10:47 >> Not very effective.
00:10:47 00:10:50 May I just say not at all effective at all.
00:10:50 00:10:51 >> Nope.
00:10:51 00:10:56 >> Actually most, I feel the need to share that most women addicted
00:10:56 00:10:59 to alcohol have an untreated depression.
00:10:59 00:11:01 And it is a huge problem because women are proactive,
00:11:01 00:11:03 we're gonna do something.
00:11:03 00:11:07 Jack Daniels is not as good a choice as-
00:11:07 00:11:07 >> No.
00:11:07 00:11:09 >> An antidepressant, ladies.
00:11:09 00:11:11 [LAUGH] We'll just have that there.
00:11:11 00:11:14 >> And not that I'm totally against drinking.
00:11:14 00:11:17 It's just- [CROSSTALK] But there's a difference between enjoying a class
00:11:17 00:11:21 of wine and I hate the feelings I have, so I think I'll feel nothing.
00:11:21 00:11:23 >> Yes, and if you have a couple more, then yes.
00:11:23 00:11:24 >> Yes, and then you really don't feel-
00:11:24 00:11:25 >> A bunch more, yes.
00:11:25 00:11:25 >> Then you're there.
00:11:25 00:11:27 >> Then you don't sleep, no.
00:11:27 00:11:28 [LAUGH] >> Right, and
00:11:28 00:11:29 then you have all that.
00:11:29 00:11:32 So you had, you sort of knew it was a thing,
00:11:32 00:11:36 because of family members or others, but for you.
00:11:36 00:11:38 >> That's not me, I'm just going through a tough time.
00:11:38 00:11:41 >> Did you have any idea what, I mean most of us I think could say
00:11:41 00:11:43 what the symptoms of a heart attack are.
00:11:43 00:11:45 >> Right. >> Or if someone's having a stroke.
00:11:45 00:11:46 >> Right. >> You know we've done a good
00:11:46 00:11:47 job educating.
00:11:47 00:11:50 Getting people, did you have any idea that if you weren't enjoying
00:11:50 00:11:53 things or if you weren't feeling attached to people,
00:11:53 00:11:56 that any of that had to do with a medical problem?
00:11:56 00:11:59 >> No, I just thought it was I'm just feeling a little down or
00:11:59 00:12:01 a little blue.
00:12:01 00:12:04 I'm just really tired and worn out, I've been traveling.
00:12:04 00:12:07 >> So you could explain it away.
00:12:07 00:12:08 >> And this just actually came to me now.
00:12:10 00:12:13 Still learning that whenever I would get off the road,
00:12:13 00:12:17 because we'd do eight months or eleven months in the old days on
00:12:17 00:12:22 the road living out of a suitcase, and the minute I get off the road,
00:12:22 00:12:28 which was less, I would just go underground for a month.
00:12:29 00:12:30 I just, you know.
00:12:30 00:12:32 >> Well, adrenaline a pretty powerful thing too.
00:12:32 00:12:34 >> It is, it's really powerful.
00:12:34 00:12:36 >> It is. And masks things.
00:12:36 00:12:37 >> So yeah. >> It's a little less unhealthy than
00:12:37 00:12:39 alcohol, but it's again.
00:12:39 00:12:40 >> Yeah. >> Not treating
00:12:40 00:12:40 the underlying thing.
00:12:40 00:12:43 But many people say that, I get busy enough, I don't feel it.
00:12:43 00:12:44 >> Exactly.
00:12:44 00:12:45 >> I stop and it's all still there.
00:12:45 00:12:46 >> Exactly.
00:12:46 00:12:47 Yes.
00:12:47 00:12:51 >> So for you, you would have not much energy it sounds like.
00:12:51 00:12:53 >> Always tired. >> Would you become more withdrawn?
00:12:53 00:12:55 Would you be less social?
00:12:55 00:12:57 >> Well when I go underground, yeah,
00:12:57 00:13:00 I would just sort of lie around the house.
00:13:00 00:13:03 And it wasn't, it got worse as I got older.
00:13:03 00:13:07 But I was always kind of withdrawn.
00:13:07 00:13:12 I mean I was very, as a Performer, you learn to mask it.
00:13:12 00:13:16 Or when I go on the ice, I'm choreographed to do this and this.
00:13:16 00:13:19 It's so, I'm not choreographed in life.
00:13:19 00:13:25 So, I'm just not the most comfortable with speaking or
00:13:25 00:13:26 anything.
00:13:26 00:13:27 So I guess.
00:13:27 00:13:28 >> No one would know it today.
00:13:29 00:13:32 They wouldn't know, but lots of practice, right?
00:13:32 00:13:33 >> Yes.
00:13:33 00:13:36 >> Yes, so for you being alone time was a fine thing.
00:13:36 00:13:38 >> Yes, and I always loved alone time.
00:13:38 00:13:43 >> But would it go beyond that, that you wouldn't have
00:13:43 00:13:46 any energy to do anything, or that you weren't really seeing anyone or
00:13:46 00:13:49 going out, or things like that?
00:13:49 00:13:51 >> Yes, yes. That's when it got really bad.
00:13:52 00:13:55 Did it change your feelings about yourself, the depression?
00:13:55 00:13:57 Would you get more critical?
00:13:57 00:13:58 Would you get more negative about yourself?
00:14:00 00:14:02 >> Yes, I was always very negative about myself.
00:14:04 00:14:05 >> Perfectionistic, you would say.
00:14:05 00:14:06 >> Yes.
00:14:06 00:14:08 >> Would that get worse, though, when you got more depressed?
00:14:10 00:14:11 >> Yes.
00:14:11 00:14:12 Absolutely.
00:14:12 00:14:14 Or else I'd just figure, yes.
00:14:14 00:14:15 Nobody I don't need- >> Well,
00:14:15 00:14:19 it's interesting because when people are themselves quiet and
00:14:19 00:14:22 critical and those things just who they are.
00:14:22 00:14:24 >> Yep. >> Depression often gets missed.
00:14:24 00:14:24 >> Aha.
00:14:24 00:14:28 >> Because they get stronger versions of themselves.
00:14:28 00:14:32 Whereas if you're sort of a happy-go-lucky, outgoing person,
00:14:32 00:14:35 it gets picked up quicker because like, well, you're not yourself.
00:14:35 00:14:35 >> What's the matter with you?
00:14:35 00:14:36 [LAUGH] >> Versus you
00:14:36 00:14:38 seem a little more yourself.
00:14:38 00:14:40 >> And maybe the most painful parts of yourself.
00:14:40 00:14:41 >> Interesting. Yep.
00:14:41 00:14:42 >> And I think that really is
00:14:42 00:14:44 the pattern sometimes for people.
00:14:44 00:14:45 >> Yeah, that.
00:14:45 00:14:46 That makes perfect sense.
00:14:46 00:14:47 >> Would things change.
00:14:47 00:14:50 Like some people tell me that they just can't think very clearly or
00:14:50 00:14:51 they just feel so slow.
00:14:51 00:14:53 You know, they feel like they- >> Yeah.
00:14:54 00:14:56 I definitely don't think very clearly.
00:14:56 00:15:02 Actually, nowadays, when I think my clearest is when I'm out on the ice.
00:15:03 00:15:05 I'm back in my comfort zone.
00:15:05 00:15:08 I'm back in my bubble, and I won't be thinking about the technical
00:15:08 00:15:11 aspects of how to do a camel spin or something.
00:15:11 00:15:12 I'll be thinking about.
00:15:12 00:15:13 [CROSSTALK] >> I never thought of that.
00:15:13 00:15:16 >> I need to do this, and I'll need to do that.
00:15:16 00:15:17 >> You never thought about that?
00:15:17 00:15:18 >> I never thought about the tech.
00:15:18 00:15:19 Because I couldn't do anything.
00:15:19 00:15:21 I never learned to skate backwards.
00:15:21 00:15:22 >> I gave up.
00:15:22 00:15:23 >> I can help you with that.
00:15:23 00:15:24 [LAUGH] >> I bet you can.
00:15:24 00:15:26 [LAUGH] Do a little swap here.
00:15:26 00:15:30 >> Exactly, so when you do those things you can get caught up in it,
00:15:30 00:15:32 even if you are not feeling great?
00:15:32 00:15:33 That can be a relief for you.
00:15:33 00:15:34 >> Yes.
00:15:34 00:15:36 >> Would you find, many people describe that the things you
00:15:36 00:15:42 typically enjoy, that really give them joy, that that gets tempered or
00:15:42 00:15:44 they can't really engage when they're depressed.
00:15:44 00:15:45 Was that your experience?
00:15:48 00:15:51 >> Well, maybe.
00:15:51 00:15:53 I guess maybe it was.
00:15:53 00:15:57 And to this day, when I go out and
00:15:58 00:16:02 tool around on the ice with music in the cool air, I feel better.
00:16:02 00:16:02 It's just getting there.
00:16:02 00:16:04 >> The motivation. >> Arriving to the rink, and
00:16:04 00:16:08 putting on the skates, and not that I don't love everybody and
00:16:08 00:16:11 all the fans because that's why I was able to have
00:16:12 00:16:16 a career as an ice skater.
00:16:16 00:16:17 >> A little talent too.
00:16:17 00:16:18 >> No no no no no.
00:16:18 00:16:19 >> Yeah a little talent.
00:16:19 00:16:24 >> I didn't want to just tenacity but I didn't want to, I don't
00:16:24 00:16:28 want to have to go to the rink and have make-up on and hair and.
00:16:28 00:16:32 >> Yeah, your hair has gotten a lot of attention over the years I'd say.
00:16:32 00:16:34 >> So scary. So scary.
00:16:34 00:16:35 >> Right.
00:16:35 00:16:39 >> But so it just, like, I don't really want to see anybody.
00:16:39 00:16:41 If I could just magically, you know.
00:16:41 00:16:46 Go to the kitchen and be ice skating around, that would be good.
00:16:46 00:16:47 >> That would have been better.
00:16:47 00:16:49 >> Yes a little bit of that.
00:16:49 00:16:51 The motivation to get there is.
00:16:51 00:16:53 >> What I've had older people describe to me as.
00:16:53 00:16:56 Is that they still love, when grandparents say they don't
00:16:56 00:16:59 enjoy seeing their grandchildren you know it's really bad.
00:16:59 00:17:00 That's the worst depressions.
00:17:00 00:17:01 I mean that seriously.
00:17:01 00:17:02 >> Yeah, interesting.
00:17:02 00:17:04 >> So if you could get there you could enjoy it, but
00:17:04 00:17:05 sort of the I have to go do it.
00:17:05 00:17:08 It feels like a Was more of a slog.
00:17:08 00:17:09 >> Yeah.
00:17:09 00:17:10 >> Much more of a slog, okay.
00:17:10 00:17:11 >> Yeah.
00:17:11 00:17:16 >> So when you figured out, okay so people said this is what you have we
00:17:16 00:17:21 want to treat you, what was that like,
00:17:21 00:17:23 to have someone tell you we think you have this medical problem?
00:17:26 00:17:31 >> Well, I think the good news is, I think I thought it was
00:17:31 00:17:36 temporary and they said, well why don't you try this?
00:17:36 00:17:41 So they weren't, cuz this was what, 30 years ago or something like that.
00:17:41 00:17:44 So it was more, well, why don't you just take this.
00:17:44 00:17:48 You're going through some tough things and so
00:17:48 00:17:50 I thought it was situational.
00:17:50 00:17:52 And then as I discovered,
00:17:52 00:17:58 it was not situational thing because when everything was beautiful and
00:17:58 00:18:04 written ahead absolutely no reason to be down or blue or unmotivated.
00:18:04 00:18:07 I still was, >> You
00:18:07 00:18:10 could have periods where your yeah.
00:18:10 00:18:13 So, for you, did that change your believing that it was a medical
00:18:13 00:18:16 problem when it happened when life was good?
00:18:16 00:18:17 >> Yeah. >> That makes a whole lot of sense.
00:18:17 00:18:18 >> Yeah.
00:18:18 00:18:20 >> Now I know that, in addition to depression,
00:18:20 00:18:23 you've been very public about having the challenge of breast cancer and
00:18:23 00:18:25 getting breast cancer treatment.
00:18:25 00:18:27 >> Yes.
00:18:27 00:18:28 >> What was that like?
00:18:28 00:18:31 We heard from one of our Hopkins experts this morning.
00:18:31 00:18:32 This is obviously an important topic for so many women.
00:18:32 00:18:36 >> Yes, and I am so thankful to Hopkins for
00:18:36 00:18:41 their incredible care and all of people that I had and
00:18:41 00:18:44 Lily Shackney who any time you called,
00:18:44 00:18:49 she'd hold your hand through the whole thing.
00:18:53 00:18:56 And my Hopkins was a second opinion.
00:18:56 00:19:02 Somebody, actually Timmy get a second opinion at Hopkins.
00:19:02 00:19:06 So my mom had breast cancer when she was about 50, so
00:19:06 00:19:10 I kind of always thought it's something I should...
00:19:10 00:19:11 >> Beware.
00:19:11 00:19:12 >> Watch out for, yeah.
00:19:12 00:19:17 So when I got that diagnosis, I'm not sure I was scared.
00:19:19 00:19:21 I also knew, partly because of the wonderful.
00:19:24 00:19:30 Support group at Hopkins, and I knew enough people that lived and
00:19:30 00:19:35 are still alive, including my mother, wel,l not right now.
00:19:35 00:19:36 >> Right but you knew lots of survivors.
00:19:36 00:19:37 >> I knew it was possible.
00:19:37 00:19:37 Yes.
00:19:37 00:19:38 >> You knew lots of survivors.
00:19:38 00:19:44 >> Lots of survivors and I knew I was getting the best care and
00:19:44 00:19:49 as my psychiatrist tells me, I'm coachable.
00:19:49 00:19:52 >> I bet. >> So, if somebody tells me to do
00:19:52 00:19:52 this.
00:19:52 00:19:53 I'll do it.
00:19:53 00:19:53 >> Right.
00:19:53 00:19:57 >> But if it's for me to make the decision to do it, I can't do that.
00:19:57 00:19:58 >> Right, so input.
00:19:58 00:20:00 And you're like, we have a plan.
00:20:00 00:20:01 >> Yep. >> I'm gonna follow the plan,
00:20:01 00:20:03 I'm not gonna give up on the plan.
00:20:03 00:20:04 >> Yep. >> So all of that.
00:20:04 00:20:07 >> My husband John was, he was just very, he had asked
00:20:07 00:20:11 all the right questions and you go in and they tell you, you know.
00:20:11 00:20:16 Whatever they can about it, you're just so filled with information and
00:20:16 00:20:21 not knowing really the right questions and so I thought you
00:20:23 00:20:27 know what, if this is the end,
00:20:27 00:20:30 if this is what it's meant to be, I'm okay with that.
00:20:30 00:20:35 I've had a full life, And so my feeling about that was.
00:20:37 00:20:40 I didn't feel it was a death sentence..
00:20:40 00:20:42 >> Well as you said you knew lots of survivors.
00:20:42 00:20:44 >> Yes. >> So many women live
00:20:44 00:20:48 with breast cancer and go on to do three day marches for
00:20:48 00:20:51 Avon and all these other wonderful things.
00:20:51 00:20:51 >> Yep. >> So-
00:20:51 00:20:52 >> All that.
00:20:52 00:20:53 >> You are optimistic and
00:20:53 00:20:55 you have reason to be optimistic. It sounded like.
00:20:55 00:20:55 >> Absolutely. Yep.
00:20:55 00:20:57 >> And They've had a wonderful response
00:20:57 00:20:58 to treatment. >> Yes.
00:20:58 00:20:59 >> Yes. So that all
00:20:59 00:21:00 >> Very nice.
00:21:01 00:21:03 Except that those inhibitors they are the worst but anyway.
00:21:03 00:21:06 [LAUGH] >> So treatment wasn't easy but
00:21:06 00:21:08 you just said I'm gonna do it I'm gonna keep going.
00:21:08 00:21:11 >> Yeah physically it was not fun.
00:21:11 00:21:14 >> As a psychiatrist I have to ask you were your friends different
00:21:14 00:21:17 in supporting you when you were in periods of depression
00:21:17 00:21:18 versus breast cancer?
00:21:19 00:21:22 >> You know, when you have, when you're diagnosed
00:21:22 00:21:26 with breast cancer or cancer, the support group is amazing.
00:21:26 00:21:31 I had people sending flowers and cards and people offering
00:21:31 00:21:36 to take, offering to take me to treatments and
00:21:36 00:21:38 bring food, bring meals to your house.
00:21:38 00:21:41 And it was just very embracing.
00:21:41 00:21:45 And with depression, nobody sends you flowers.
00:21:45 00:21:47 Nobody sends you chocolates.
00:21:47 00:21:48 [LAUGH] >> Chocolate would be a good thing
00:21:48 00:21:49 to send probably.
00:21:49 00:21:50 [LAUGH] >> Yeah so yeah. I don't know.
00:21:50 00:21:53 For me, it might make it worse.
00:21:53 00:21:56 >> [LAUGH] >> But no, it's just,
00:21:56 00:22:00 it's a very, you don't really >> I don't really go around saying,
00:22:00 00:22:04 by the way, I'm depressed and I'm not going to call you for a month.
00:22:04 00:22:07 Even though people know I have it.
00:22:07 00:22:09 It's just- >> Was that something?
00:22:09 00:22:12 Obviously, I live in Baltimore.
00:22:12 00:22:15 I'd never met you and I knew you had breast cancer.
00:22:15 00:22:18 Because Baltimore is the tiniest town in the world and
00:22:18 00:22:19 everyone knows everything.
00:22:19 00:22:22 But it was the sense of we're gonna get through this together and
00:22:22 00:22:26 we're a big team and all of that.
00:22:26 00:22:28 >> Yeah. I had people hunting me down and
00:22:28 00:22:31 I'm not a big old celebrity certainly.
00:22:32 00:22:37 But People Magazine they kept calling and calling cuz they wanted
00:22:37 00:22:43 to get the story but They don't wanna get the story now.
00:22:43 00:22:44 [LAUGH] You know what I mean.
00:22:44 00:22:45 >> Happy stories do not usually [CROSSTALK].
00:22:45 00:22:46 >> So different.
00:22:46 00:22:47 >> Yeah, exactly.
00:22:47 00:22:47 >> Breast cancer.
00:22:47 00:22:49 But Peggy Fleming had breast cancer.
00:22:49 00:22:51 >> Mm-hm. >> I talked to her a little bit.
00:22:51 00:22:54 I did talk to the people that I knew that
00:22:54 00:22:58 had been through the treatment and so, yeah. Sorry.
00:22:58 00:22:58 >> So,
00:22:58 00:22:59 but your friends were very much,
00:22:59 00:23:02 were bringing general we wanted take it to the hot.
00:23:02 00:23:03 Wherever you need.
00:23:03 00:23:06 >> Yep, I had the best, the best friends in Baltimore.
00:23:06 00:23:08 >> And when you we're going through depression,
00:23:08 00:23:10 would you even share that with them?
00:23:10 00:23:11 >> No.
00:23:11 00:23:13 >> Right. So,
00:23:13 00:23:17 in a way they had less in the chance to Help.
00:23:17 00:23:18 >> They had less of a chance.
00:23:18 00:23:19 >> Yes.
00:23:19 00:23:21 >> Yeah, yeah. But-
00:23:21 00:23:22 >> Who knows what that.
00:23:22 00:23:25 I'm not saying trust me, most people don't show up with the casserole
00:23:25 00:23:26 when someone has depression.
00:23:26 00:23:28 >> No. >> Although you should.
00:23:28 00:23:30 >> [LAUGH] >> Yeah.
00:23:30 00:23:33 >> Linda McIntire can tell you exactly what to bring.
00:23:33 00:23:35 And I'm sure it should be kale or something but-
00:23:35 00:23:37 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah
00:23:37 00:23:37 >> But,
00:23:37 00:23:38 >> As long as-
00:23:38 00:23:39 >> Exactly.
00:23:40 00:23:44 >> But did it feel very different to you about whether you would
00:23:44 00:23:44 share that?
00:23:49 00:23:53 >> No, I mean I guess it felt like, I don't know it's
00:23:53 00:23:58 not something that You want your best friend, neighbor who's two
00:23:58 00:24:01 doors away who would do anything, she would have brought me casserole,
00:24:01 00:24:06 but it's kind of like, I wouldn't have opened the door.
00:24:06 00:24:08 That's I wouldn't have done that.
00:24:08 00:24:10 >> You would have rather just been alone.
00:24:10 00:24:13 Yeah, I think it's very tricky, because I think that everyone's
00:24:13 00:24:18 instinct When okay and the family's instinct, breast cancer well let's
00:24:18 00:24:22 tell everyone, figure out what we need to do, get the best team.
00:24:22 00:24:24 >> [CROSSTALK] >> All of that, the same energy,
00:24:24 00:24:29 the same machine doesn't go into gear, does it, with depression.
00:24:29 00:24:30 It's very private.
00:24:30 00:24:31 >> It is yep.
00:24:31 00:24:34 >> Very private and very internal.
00:24:34 00:24:37 >> And the treatment that works for, it's not as if
00:24:41 00:24:43 And I mean, I'm just a dumb ice skater.
00:24:43 00:24:44 But I think with.
00:24:44 00:24:45 >> I would challenge that.
00:24:45 00:24:48 I have a few women who'll join me in challenging that, I'm sure. Yeah.
00:24:48 00:24:50 [APPLAUSE] That's not true at all.
00:24:50 00:24:53 >> Well, anyway >> [APPLAUSE]
00:24:53 00:24:54 >> Not looking for
00:24:54 00:24:56 >> I know.
00:24:56 00:24:59 >> But with cancer, depending on the kind of cancer,
00:24:59 00:25:03 you know they can recognize if it's hormone receptor positive.
00:25:03 00:25:06 >> Yeah I can't give the talk that was given this morning
00:25:06 00:25:06 about depression.
00:25:06 00:25:08 We don't we know this much.
00:25:08 00:25:09 Not this much.
00:25:09 00:25:11 Yeah exactly so it's a lot of trial and error.
00:25:11 00:25:13 >> Exactly.
00:25:13 00:25:14 >> And the medications.
00:25:14 00:25:16 And then when I was on the aromatase inhibitors,
00:25:16 00:25:19 I couldn't take one of the medications that worked for me then.
00:25:20 00:25:23 And five years later, I'm able to go back on the one that,
00:25:23 00:25:25 because the anyway.
00:25:25 00:25:28 >> interacted and so, all of that got complicated, yeah.
00:25:28 00:25:30 >> Yeah, and that was a problem.
00:25:30 00:25:35 And a year ago, a year and a half ago, I had to make the decision
00:25:35 00:25:40 Am I gonna go off of the Tamoxifen or am I gonna?
00:25:40 00:25:41 Or am I gonna- and
00:25:41 00:25:44 stay on this other antidepressant that doesn't work for me?
00:25:44 00:25:46 >> Mm-hm, work so well.
00:25:46 00:25:47 >> And so I had to balance.
00:25:47 00:25:51 So I thought, quality of life is what it's about.
00:25:51 00:25:53 So, yeah.
00:25:53 00:25:58 Do you have a sense that, your own experience from having this,
00:25:58 00:26:00 not to having a talk about much.
00:26:00 00:26:02 Do you think that's different?
00:26:03 00:26:05 I tried to be an optimist that people are talking more
00:26:05 00:26:07 about depression or more open about it.
00:26:07 00:26:09 But, you've had the experience.
00:26:09 00:26:12 Do you think it's different now compared to several years ago?
00:26:12 00:26:13 >> I think it's a little different.
00:26:13 00:26:16 I don't think, well, probably ten years ago,
00:26:16 00:26:18 I think it's hugely different.
00:26:18 00:26:20 But it's not anywhere near enough.
00:26:20 00:26:21 But I did pick up one of the tabloids.
00:26:21 00:26:24 Which is actually a decent tabloid.
00:26:24 00:26:27 Because they really do talk to the celebrities.
00:26:27 00:26:30 >> Mm-hm. >> And Sally Field was on the cover.
00:26:30 00:26:32 Her battle with depression, and she's open about it.
00:26:32 00:26:35 And so it's good to see.
00:26:36 00:26:39 The people that you think have the perfect life because
00:26:39 00:26:43 they're rich and famous or successful.
00:26:43 00:26:47 You think that, they couldn't possibly be going through that.
00:26:47 00:26:49 >> What challenges the idea that you have, that again like I said,
00:26:49 00:26:51 because you're weak or not hard working.
00:26:51 00:26:52 You know it does.
00:26:52 00:26:54 >> Right. >> It challenges it.
00:26:54 00:26:56 That's like saying, you know,
00:26:56 00:26:59 if you were hard working you wouldn't get breast cancer.
00:26:59 00:26:59 >> Right. Yeah.
00:26:59 00:27:01 >> No one would.
00:27:01 00:27:04 I would say, what are you talking about?
00:27:04 00:27:07 That's a ridiculous thing to say.
00:27:07 00:27:09 >> Right. >> Well, they're two
00:27:09 00:27:09 medical problems.
00:27:09 00:27:11 >> Yes. >> So how's life now, for you?
00:27:11 00:27:12 >> Life is great.
00:27:12 00:27:16 I have a fabulous husband, I have a, like the sort of perfect life and
00:27:16 00:27:19 I am always thinking ok when is the shoe gonna drop.
00:27:19 00:27:20 You know?
00:27:20 00:27:21 >> Hmm. >> So I really do try and.
00:27:24 00:27:27 Just live everyday, and really enjoy it.
00:27:27 00:27:32 And that's a little bit tough to do.
00:27:32 00:27:35 We'll I don't have a purpose to get up in the morning.
00:27:35 00:27:37 I don't have a goal.
00:27:37 00:27:39 I don't have that which I\ve always had.
00:27:39 00:27:42 Well at least I have to ready to be on the road, the week or
00:27:42 00:27:46 two weeks So I'm really enjoying just being a slug,
00:27:46 00:27:50 going skiing now and doing fun things like that.
00:27:50 00:27:51 >> Sure. >> But I still do from time to time
00:27:51 00:27:53 go into subtle little funks.
00:27:53 00:28:02 But the therapist that I have is in Baltimore,
00:28:02 00:28:07 even though I don't live anywhere near Baltimore anymore.
00:28:07 00:28:13 Is brilliant, and she saved my life in many ways, many times.
00:28:13 00:28:16 I mean, she's just so solid and I think that's the hard part is really
00:28:16 00:28:21 finding something that works and
00:28:23 00:28:26 But also you've talked about a challenge.
00:28:26 00:28:27 Is it even if something works perfectly.
00:28:27 00:28:30 It might work for a while, or you get a new medical problem and
00:28:30 00:28:31 you have to make changes.
00:28:31 00:28:35 It is much more like managing diabetes than having
00:28:35 00:28:36 your appendix out.
00:28:36 00:28:39 There's not one of those, we fixed And we're done with that.
00:28:39 00:28:40 >> Yes. >> Yes.
00:28:40 00:28:41 >> That's exactly, yes.
00:28:41 00:28:42 >> Yeah, so that's a challenge.
00:28:42 00:28:44 >> That is a challenge.
00:28:44 00:28:47 So given that things right now for you are really good.
00:28:47 00:28:49 You're enjoying life, you're happily married.
00:28:49 00:28:51 All these good things in your life.
00:28:51 00:28:57 Why talk about things that are so personal and are tough?
00:28:57 00:28:59 Many people would say my goodness.
00:28:59 00:29:03 Why is she exposing herself or why is she doing that?
00:29:03 00:29:05 >> I just think it's really important and
00:29:05 00:29:09 the more you people [LAUGH] study it and
00:29:09 00:29:14 find out the brain chemistry and all of that.
00:29:14 00:29:18 People will, and I think they're starting to understand that this is
00:29:18 00:29:20 This is a real medical problem its not that
00:29:20 00:29:25 you're just you know insane or crazy.
00:29:25 00:29:28 Like my mom she just thought she was crazy.
00:29:28 00:29:30 >> Well I think, you and I were talking about this and
00:29:30 00:29:34 I shared with you that I had a patient with really bad anxiety and
00:29:34 00:29:38 here husband didn't believe it was really until she went with
00:29:38 00:29:42 They went together to a support group and a man had the same thing.
00:29:43 00:29:45 And then he said, my gosh, this is a real medical problem.
00:29:45 00:29:49 >> [LAUGH] >> This successful business man has
00:29:49 00:29:50 it too.
00:29:50 00:29:53 And so, I just wanna thank you because I don't think it's
00:29:53 00:29:55 in many ways, it's no different than Sally Field.
00:29:55 00:29:58 I think when people have had great success Or willing to say this can
00:29:58 00:30:03 be part of my life too, so in that way it's just like breast cancer or
00:30:03 00:30:06 high blood pressure, or any other medical problem.
00:30:06 00:30:09 Who you are unfortunately doesn't protect you.
00:30:09 00:30:10 >> Right.
00:30:10 00:30:12 >> Now who you are if you're coachable might have something to do
00:30:12 00:30:13 with how well you do.
00:30:13 00:30:16 >> I take my medicine, sure, you tell me when to do it, I'll do it.
00:30:16 00:30:18 >> Yeah that's right, that makes a big difference too.
00:30:18 00:30:21 >> So my one question, one >> Many questions for
00:30:21 00:30:27 you is when you see someone who doesn't hasn't accepted but
00:30:27 00:30:32 you know psychiatry works or any of that work how do you I mean
00:30:32 00:30:36 I always said if somebody physically took me when I was depressed and
00:30:36 00:30:40 took me by the hand and forced me to go to see someone.
00:30:40 00:30:42 >> That's the only way you would have gotten in there.
00:30:42 00:30:44 It wouldn't be making an appointment and I'll show up.
00:30:44 00:30:45 It's not [INAUDIBLE].
00:30:45 00:30:46 >> No often you need someone to take you,
00:30:46 00:30:48 even more than going to chemotherapy.
00:30:48 00:30:50 You need someone to physically bring you.
00:30:50 00:30:51 >> Yep. >> And-
00:30:51 00:30:52 >> And how do you find good people?
00:30:52 00:30:54 Like the people who can afford to.
00:30:54 00:30:55 >> That's a million dollar question.
00:30:55 00:30:58 I mean the. I also say that I think that
00:30:58 00:31:02 with all of medicine, there's a real Challenge to find.
00:31:02 00:31:04 And in psychiatry, it's not just someone who's competent but
00:31:04 00:31:06 someone you can actually relate to.
00:31:06 00:31:07 >> Yeah. >> It's clear from
00:31:07 00:31:10 your comments that you really feel comfortable with your therapist, and
00:31:10 00:31:12 that's a really great working relationship.
00:31:12 00:31:13 That's important in psychiatry.
00:31:13 00:31:15 >> Yeah. >> Cuz it's more than just.
00:31:15 00:31:17 It should be more than just taking medicine.
00:31:17 00:31:18 >> Yeah. Absolutely.
00:31:18 00:31:20 >> Because life, the stress of life.
00:31:20 00:31:22 >> Yep. >> Certainly complicates.
00:31:22 00:31:23 And if you don't address.
00:31:23 00:31:23 >> Yeah. >> Those stresses,
00:31:23 00:31:25 things get worse, so.
00:31:25 00:31:25 >> Right.
00:31:25 00:31:28 It is hard and i think that it often take persistence and
00:31:28 00:31:31 many composition to say this is why i believe this.
00:31:31 00:31:34 So grave people spend sometimes.
00:31:36 00:31:37 And some of you are not.
00:31:38 00:31:42 And that's hard because you know someone has a treatable condition
00:31:42 00:31:44 And they're suffering when they don't need to.
00:31:44 00:31:46 Many people asked me my gosh, how am I gonna get my friend to go?
00:31:46 00:31:49 And so, we'll let me tell you what I've said to my own friends.
00:31:49 00:31:51 I think you're suffering when you don't need to.
00:31:51 00:31:55 It's hard to watch you suffering when I know there's help.
00:31:55 00:31:59 So, I made an appointment, I found someone, I'm taking you.
00:31:59 00:32:01 Though, all those things are part of that process.
00:32:01 00:32:06 So Yeah.
00:32:06 00:32:10 It's just so important, it really is and, you know, and it's ongoing.
00:32:10 00:32:11 It changes, doesn't it.
00:32:11 00:32:14 It does. [CROSSTALK] Any last thoughts.
00:32:14 00:32:17 I mean this has been just a delight to have a chance to talk with you.
00:32:17 00:32:20 I adore you and I just thank you for allowing me to do this and
00:32:20 00:32:22 I"m not a public speaker.
00:32:22 00:32:23 I've Tried.
00:32:23 00:32:27 And I just can't tell you how important I think this is.
00:32:27 00:32:33 Having watched two parents as alcoholics.
00:32:33 00:32:34 And nieces and everybody in my family and
00:32:34 00:32:40 extended family has had it, has been affected by it.
00:32:41 00:32:42 It's just really important.
00:32:42 00:32:49 It's so much more prevalent, people who go undiagnosed, it's really sad.
00:32:49 00:32:53 >> Well this is gonna help others get that message and
00:32:53 00:32:54 help their own family, so thank you so much.
00:32:54 00:32:55 >> Thank you. You.
00:32:55 00:32:56 >> You're very welcome.
00:32:56 00:32:58 >> And thank you for what you're doing.
00:32:58 00:32:58 >> [APPLAUSE] >> And thank you.
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