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Ladies and gentlemen,
|
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if I could have your attention please,
we’re going to start. |
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00:01:44 |
President Zuma has a packed schedule
so we are under some time constraints. |
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00:01:48 |
I’m Fareed Zakaria.
If I could just ask all of you |
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to turn your cell phones off and
that kind of thing, |
| 00:01:51 |
00:01:53 |
we can get started. |
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00:01:57 |
I want to welcome the entire
South Africa delegation. |
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00:02:00 |
The president was pointing out to me
he has his entire cabinet here. |
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00:02:02 |
I see Trevor Manuel and I’m not sure |
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00:02:05 |
it’s not because you’re worried abou
t some kind of a coup |
| 00:02:05 |
00:02:08 |
taking place while you’re away.
- That’s right. |
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00:02:15 |
But we’re going to start this
just as a conversation. |
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We’re delighted to be joined
by President Zuma, |
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the new president of South Africa. |
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00:02:26 |
Let me ask you, to start, Mr. President, |
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you are coming in to an office
that was held by Nelson Mandela. |
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00:02:36 |
Do you feel nervous, apprehensive? |
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00:02:39 |
What are your thoughts about
being in a role |
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00:02:44 |
that has been so public and
so prominent globally? |
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00:02:51 |
Well, if anything, it is humbling
to be given this responsibility |
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by the South African people,
by my organization. |
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00:03:07 |
It is a task, indeed, that needs
such great leaders as Nelson Mandela. |
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00:03:15 |
But let me say, that we have
mentioned President Nelson Mandela, |
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that many people forget that this year,
we are completing 20 years |
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00:03:25 |
since Mandela was released from prison. |
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00:03:29 |
On the 11th of February it was. |
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00:03:35 |
As a country, South Africa,
we are celebrating this. |
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00:03:39 |
We have aligned it to the opening
of our Parliament |
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so that the country could celebrate
the big day |
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00:03:51 |
that heralded the events in South Africa
that changed South Africa |
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from a racist conflict-ridden country
into a democratic country. |
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We are, therefore, reminding everyone |
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00:04:08 |
and fortunately, Nelson Mandela
is still with us, he still lives, |
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00:04:11 |
so we will be celebrating with him. |
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00:04:16 |
It’s important for us because
the coming out of Nelson Mandela |
| 00:04:16 |
00:04:19 |
and the contribution he made
leading the negotiations |
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established a kind of culture
in South Africa |
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00:04:28 |
that nobody had ever thought of. |
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00:04:35 |
Suddenly, we’re able to defeat racism,
which was entrenched in South Africa, |
| 00:04:35 |
00:04:42 |
and he led the approach
and the campaigns |
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00:04:47 |
to reconcile South Africans and establish
a truly democratic South Africa. |
| 00:04:47 |
00:04:48 |
But you know, a number of people |
| 00:04:49 |
00:04:54 |
look at your election with some
apprehension, let’s be honest. |
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00:04:57 |
There are people who say
you are a populist, |
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00:05:00 |
that you inherit a difficult economy. |
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00:05:04 |
South Africa is entering its
first recession in 15 years |
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00:05:09 |
and people worry about
what effect a series of populist policies |
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00:05:13 |
will have in an already fragile
global economy |
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00:05:16 |
and with an already fragile
South African economy. |
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00:05:21 |
Well, I don’t know if people
talk about populists in the world. |
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00:05:26 |
I don’t know in terms
what it means because |
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00:05:31 |
if a leader in a country is supported
by an overwhelming majority, |
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00:05:38 |
I’m not sure how to divide the populists,
the person who is just there. |
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00:05:43 |
The fact of the matter is that
I belong to the ANC, |
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which is the organization that is
supported by the people of South Africa, |
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and I’ve been one of its cadres in the
leading positions for quite a while, |
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00:05:58 |
and of course, have taken over
from not just Mandela, |
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00:06:01 |
from Thabo Mbeki
who followed Mandela, |
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who also made a very huge contribution
to make the task very easy |
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for some of us who followed thereafter. |
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00:06:16 |
We have come in, I think,
it’s now seven months. |
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00:06:20 |
We have looked at government. |
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00:06:24 |
We have reconfigured
some of the departments |
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00:06:28 |
in order to ensure that the
effective government is there, |
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that transparency is deepened,
that the delivery continues. |
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00:06:41 |
We have looked at the policies which
basically emanated from the ruling party |
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00:06:49 |
so that there are no unnecessary kind of
policies that emanate from an individual. |
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00:06:53 |
We have been able to follow the trend
as it has been all the time |
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00:06:58 |
and we came in and unfortunately, |
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00:07:04 |
we had the financial crisis that
affected everybody in the globe. |
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00:07:07 |
I think South Africa during that time |
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00:07:11 |
was able to withstand that pressure
to a large extent |
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00:07:17 |
because of its very prudent economic
policies and macroeconomic policies, |
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00:07:21 |
and we have been able therefore
to absorb that. |
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00:07:26 |
Not that we did not suffer from
the impact of it, |
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but I think, to a large extent,
we’re able to deal with the matters |
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00:07:34 |
and I think we’re able to give leadership
as a government, |
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together with business and labor
and representatives of civil society, |
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to come together and really work out
a package |
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00:07:48 |
as to how to meet the challenge
of the recession, |
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00:07:50 |
and we succeeded to do so. |
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00:07:55 |
And I don’t think anyone could say
because there was now a populist, |
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00:07:58 |
these matters could not be done
and people did not know |
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00:07:59 |
what they were doing. |
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00:08:02 |
I think that government has
always known what it is doing. |
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00:08:04 |
You talk about the majority |
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00:08:07 |
but there is also a minority
in South Africa |
| 00:08:07 |
00:08:11 |
that increasingly feels disenfranchised,
the white minority. |
| 00:08:11 |
00:08:17 |
You read interviews with people,
FW de Klerk, various other leaders. |
| 00:08:18 |
00:08:20 |
There is some evidence of white flight, |
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00:08:22 |
of people, either because of
the high crime rates |
| 00:08:22 |
00:08:26 |
or because of a sense of
economic fortunes turning, leaving. |
| 00:08:26 |
00:08:31 |
Do you care if white South Africans decide
that they want to leave the country? |
| 00:08:31 |
00:08:33 |
No, we don’t want them
to leave the country. |
| 00:08:33 |
00:08:35 |
They belong to South Africa. |
| 00:08:36 |
00:08:44 |
We are aware that since 1994, some people
felt, as the situation changed, |
| 00:08:45 |
00:08:47 |
they were not very certain
as to what is going to happen |
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00:08:53 |
and I think it made sense,
given where we came from as a country, |
| 00:08:54 |
00:08:57 |
you would have expected
that kind of reaction. |
| 00:08:57 |
00:09:00 |
But at times, that reaction,
in my view, is exaggerated |
| 00:09:00 |
00:09:05 |
because South Africans have accepted
what South Africa is all about. |
| 00:09:05 |
00:09:09 |
There are a few people at times |
| 00:09:09 |
00:09:13 |
who feel some of the policies
that were put across, |
| 00:09:13 |
00:09:17 |
like, for an example, affirmative action,
et cetera, |
| 00:09:17 |
00:09:20 |
tended to put them
in an awkward position, |
| 00:09:20 |
00:09:23 |
but we have been able to explain these
and people have accepted |
| 00:09:23 |
00:09:30 |
what the government has put across
as the policies that, in a sense, |
| 00:09:30 |
00:09:34 |
encompass and embrace all South Africans. |
| 00:09:34 |
00:09:38 |
There is nothing that people
have been able to identify |
| 00:09:38 |
00:09:41 |
as a kind of policy that exclude others. |
| 00:09:42 |
00:09:44 |
Everybody is part of it. |
| 00:09:44 |
00:09:46 |
Of course, there would be individuals
who could be very vocal |
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00:09:49 |
who might give an impression |
| 00:09:49 |
00:09:51 |
that things are not very well
in South Africa. |
| 00:09:51 |
00:09:54 |
I think we are a very proud
rainbow nation |
| 00:09:54 |
00:09:58 |
that is working together at all
material times socially, |
| 00:09:59 |
00:10:02 |
in the economic sector,
and in every other thing |
| 00:10:03 |
00:10:07 |
and we adopted a culture of participation. |
| 00:10:08 |
00:10:11 |
For an example,
some people would say that |
| 00:10:12 |
00:10:14 |
this government concerts too much, |
| 00:10:15 |
00:10:17 |
and that’s how we feel we should
involve people |
| 00:10:17 |
00:10:22 |
so that people feel a part of the
processes in the country |
| 00:10:23 |
00:10:26 |
because we feel everybody must feel
“We are part of this,” |
| 00:10:27 |
00:10:28 |
not where they must feel excluded, |
| 00:10:28 |
00:10:33 |
and we do not run short of explaining
what we are trying to do. |
| 00:10:33 |
00:10:37 |
So there isn’t anything that I would say – |
| 00:10:37 |
00:10:40 |
I would agree with those who say
South Africa is now something else |
| 00:10:40 |
00:10:44 |
since the coming of democracy
in South Africa. |
| 00:10:44 |
00:10:45 |
In fact, if anything, |
| 00:10:45 |
00:10:50 |
South Africans have come to embrace
what is happening in the country. |
| 00:10:50 |
00:10:52 |
They are very happy. |
| 00:10:52 |
00:10:53 |
But it doesn’t mean that
in any situation |
| 00:10:54 |
00:10:57 |
we could have 100 percent people
agreeing on anything. |
| 00:10:57 |
00:11:00 |
I don’t think there is any country
that could claim that. |
| 00:11:00 |
00:11:03 |
That’s why we’ve got oppositions
in countries because at times, people, |
| 00:11:03 |
00:11:06 |
even on the things that they say
they are agreed on, |
| 00:11:07 |
00:11:11 |
the way to get there, at times,
they don’t necessarily agree. |
| 00:11:11 |
00:11:16 |
I think in South Africa, there is
an element of exaggerating things. |
| 00:11:16 |
00:11:19 |
Do you believe that South Africa,
moving forward, |
| 00:11:19 |
00:11:23 |
needs more market-based reforms |
| 00:11:23 |
00:11:26 |
or does it need more
government intervention? |
| 00:11:26 |
00:11:28 |
It needs a mixture of the two. |
| 00:11:28 |
00:11:30 |
I don’t think we…
- You are fudging the question. |
| 00:11:31 |
00:11:34 |
No, I’m not avoiding the question.
It needs a mixture of the two. |
| 00:11:34 |
00:11:37 |
You cannot do with one or the other.
It needs a mixture of the two. |
| 00:11:37 |
00:11:41 |
The question is how do you balance
it in terms of the material conditions |
| 00:11:41 |
00:11:43 |
in the country where you are operating. |
| 00:11:43 |
00:11:45 |
And this is what we have said. |
| 00:11:45 |
00:11:49 |
Our economy is mixed economy
and we are dealing with both, |
| 00:11:50 |
00:11:54 |
the participation of the public sector and
the participation of the private sector. |
| 00:11:54 |
00:11:58 |
But how will you get yourself off
of purely commodity-based economy |
| 00:11:58 |
00:12:02 |
and improve the skills,
the manufactured processes |
| 00:12:02 |
00:12:05 |
without unleashing the private sector
to a larger extent? |
| 00:12:06 |
00:12:10 |
No, what we have done,
for an example, right now, |
| 00:12:10 |
00:12:13 |
we have put across our policies
very openly |
| 00:12:13 |
00:12:16 |
as to what is it that we are trying to do |
| 00:12:17 |
00:12:20 |
with the participation of both
private and public |
| 00:12:21 |
00:12:23 |
and it has worked for us up
to this point in time. |
| 00:12:24 |
00:12:25 |
Right now, for an example, |
| 00:12:25 |
00:12:33 |
we have put across a program
very specific on infrastructure. |
| 00:12:33 |
00:12:39 |
We have put aside an amount of about
R700 billion aimed at dealing with this, |
| 00:12:39 |
00:12:44 |
which helps to expand the area
of investment |
| 00:12:44 |
00:12:47 |
with regard to the infrastructure
because infrastructure in South Africa |
| 00:12:47 |
00:12:51 |
is very much needed
and we are busy with it. |
| 00:12:51 |
00:12:55 |
We have been putting
an infrastructure for 2010. |
| 00:12:55 |
00:13:01 |
We are proceeding after 2010
to proceed with even a much broader of it |
| 00:13:02 |
00:13:06 |
and both private and public
are supposed to participate. |
| 00:13:06 |
00:13:07 |
So there is no way where we say |
| 00:13:08 |
00:13:11 |
this is the only one that
will solve our problems. |
| 00:13:11 |
00:13:15 |
We believe the nature of our country
the mixture of these two |
| 00:13:15 |
00:13:17 |
helps us to move forward. |
| 00:13:17 |
00:13:19 |
One area where I think
many people hope |
| 00:13:19 |
00:13:22 |
you will diverge from the policies
of Thabo Mbeki, |
| 00:13:22 |
00:13:26 |
diverge from the policies of your
predecessor is on AIDS, |
| 00:13:26 |
00:13:29 |
South Africa and the government’s
response to the AIDS crisis. |
| 00:13:30 |
00:13:34 |
You face the extraordinary situation
where life expectancy in South Africa, |
| 00:13:34 |
00:13:36 |
a country with strong economic growth, |
| 00:13:36 |
00:13:38 |
has actually declined
over the last decade. |
| 00:13:39 |
00:13:44 |
Will you do something different
than Thabo Mbeki did on AIDS? |
| 00:13:46 |
00:13:52 |
Well, I know that people tended to
look at our policy in the past |
| 00:13:53 |
00:13:58 |
based on what some of our colleagues
as individuals said. |
| 00:13:58 |
00:14:02 |
I think government has always had
a very comprehensive policy |
| 00:14:02 |
00:14:05 |
in terms of HIV and AIDS. |
| 00:14:05 |
00:14:11 |
But the way issues that were raised that –
and people including President Mbeki, |
| 00:14:11 |
00:14:14 |
he has specific views
that he said this way. |
| 00:14:14 |
00:14:16 |
His specific views
were not necessarily… |
| 00:14:16 |
00:14:18 |
But there were bogus issues
not based in science |
| 00:14:18 |
00:14:23 |
and had the effect of stopping
an enormously important movement forward |
| 00:14:23 |
00:14:25 |
to deal with the problem. |
| 00:14:25 |
00:14:28 |
But that’s just the point I’m making,
that these were specific views |
| 00:14:28 |
00:14:32 |
and it started by President Mbeki |
| 00:14:32 |
00:14:35 |
asking questions which needed
scientists to answer. |
| 00:14:35 |
00:14:39 |
And instead of the scientists who
answered, that provoked a debate. |
| 00:14:39 |
00:14:41 |
It did not move away that we had |
| 00:14:41 |
00:14:44 |
a very clear comprehensive
policy at the time. |
| 00:14:45 |
00:14:47 |
What we have done now, |
| 00:14:47 |
00:14:51 |
we have removed the politicization
of HIV and AIDS |
| 00:14:52 |
00:14:56 |
and therefore removed those debates
and came back to the policies. |
| 00:14:56 |
00:15:00 |
We are, at this point in time,
we have prioritized health |
| 00:15:00 |
00:15:06 |
as one of the five priorities
and we have a very comprehensive program |
| 00:15:06 |
00:15:11 |
to deal with that, including to remove
the perception that existed then. |
| 00:15:11 |
00:15:15 |
So insofar as we are concerned,
on that issue, we are clear. |
| 00:15:15 |
00:15:18 |
In December, for an example, |
| 00:15:18 |
00:15:23 |
announced new measures
which added on, |
| 00:15:23 |
00:15:26 |
enhanced our policies
that were there before, |
| 00:15:26 |
00:15:29 |
and I think the country is very happy |
| 00:15:29 |
00:15:32 |
and I think the world is very happy
with the approach that we have adopted. |
| 00:15:32 |
00:15:35 |
Mr. President, I have to ask you
an awkward question, |
| 00:15:35 |
00:15:37 |
but in preparing for this interview, |
| 00:15:37 |
00:15:40 |
I was actually asked this by
so many of the women who are here |
| 00:15:40 |
00:15:43 |
because it relates to an issue |
| 00:15:43 |
00:15:46 |
that they see is one of equality
in treatment of women. |
| 00:15:46 |
00:15:50 |
You have many wives.
You practice polygamy. |
| 00:15:50 |
00:15:54 |
There are many people who say this
is symbolically a great step backward |
| 00:15:54 |
00:15:57 |
for the leader of South Africa
to be embracing a practice |
| 00:15:58 |
00:16:01 |
that they say is inherently unfair
to women. |
| 00:16:01 |
00:16:02 |
How do you react? |
| 00:16:02 |
00:16:05 |
Well, it depends
what culture you come from. |
| 00:16:05 |
00:16:08 |
People interpret cultures
in different ways |
| 00:16:09 |
00:16:11 |
and some think that their cultures
are superior to others. |
| 00:16:12 |
00:16:14 |
That’s a problem we have in the world. |
| 00:16:14 |
00:16:16 |
That’s a problem which
we need to deal with. |
| 00:16:17 |
00:16:22 |
We follow a policy that says
we must respect the cultures of others. |
| 00:16:22 |
00:16:25 |
That’s a culture.
That’s my culture. |
| 00:16:25 |
00:16:30 |
It does not take anything from me,
from my political beliefs and everything, |
| 00:16:30 |
00:16:32 |
including the belief
on the equality of women. |
| 00:16:33 |
00:16:34 |
It’s my culture. |
| 00:16:34 |
00:16:37 |
And I’m sure there are other cultures
that do that kind of thing. |
| 00:16:37 |
00:16:40 |
The problem is that when
people have their own cultures, |
| 00:16:40 |
00:16:42 |
they think that their cultures are
the only right one, |
| 00:16:42 |
00:16:45 |
probably the only one accepted by God. |
| 00:16:45 |
00:16:47 |
It does not work that way. |
| 00:16:47 |
00:16:50 |
You believe you treat
all your wives equally? |
| 00:16:51 |
00:16:52 |
Absolutely. |
| 00:16:52 |
00:16:55 |
Totally equally.
Totally equally. |
| 00:16:57 |
00:16:59 |
I think there are many people
in this audience |
| 00:17:00 |
00:17:04 |
who find it a complex challenge
to be married to one person. |
| 00:17:07 |
00:17:09 |
Mr. President, a pleasure to have you.
Thank you so much. - Thank you very much. |
| 00:17:09 |
00:17:11 |
Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you. |
