| 00:01:09 |
00:01:13 |
Ladies and gentlemen, there
can't be justice for humans |
| 00:01:13 |
00:01:16 |
without an acceptance of the
way things are, and you cannot |
| 00:01:17 |
00:01:20 |
accept the way things are if
they counter, run counter to |
| 00:01:20 |
00:01:24 |
human rights. That is
something which has been key |
| 00:01:24 |
00:01:28 |
to the recognitions of the Swiss
theologian and the social ethics |
| 00:01:28 |
00:01:32 |
artist Arthur Rich, whose 100th
birthday we are celebrating today. |
| 00:01:32 |
00:01:34 |
Pragmatism and human justice |
| 00:01:34 |
00:01:38 |
are not alternative guiding
principles amongst which you |
| 00:01:38 |
00:01:41 |
can choose. They belong
together quite objectively. |
| 00:01:41 |
00:01:45 |
Without factual competence
and without understanding |
| 00:01:45 |
00:01:48 |
complex circumstances,
intervention from theologian |
| 00:01:48 |
00:01:51 |
and ethical sides become
moralizing self-opinionatedness. |
| 00:01:51 |
00:01:55 |
And without
human justice, without social |
| 00:01:55 |
00:01:59 |
ethical principles, the economy
becomes the battleground of egoists. |
| 00:01:59 |
00:02:01 |
I would like to welcome you to |
| 00:02:01 |
00:02:05 |
the Open Forum Davos 2010,
and I do this on behalf of the |
| 00:02:05 |
00:02:09 |
Swiss Federation of Protestant
Churches and also on behalf of |
| 00:02:09 |
00:02:12 |
Andr� Schneider. The
representative of the WEFO, |
| 00:02:12 |
00:02:16 |
unfortunately, has not been
able to be with us today. |
| 00:02:16 |
00:02:20 |
It is the basic idea of the open
forum to organize, in parallel to |
| 00:02:20 |
00:02:24 |
the World Economic Forum at
the same time and at the same |
| 00:02:24 |
00:02:28 |
place, a forum which is open to
the public with panelists from |
| 00:02:28 |
00:02:32 |
civil society, politics, and
economy to debate subjects. |
| 00:02:32 |
00:02:36 |
It should be a contradictory
debate on very topical, very |
| 00:02:36 |
00:02:40 |
burning issues. This afternoon,
we will begin with the topic of |
| 00:02:40 |
00:02:44 |
"Switzerland: Misfit or Model?"
but I can also tell you |
| 00:02:44 |
00:02:48 |
that instead of using the word
"misfit," we had also thought |
| 00:02:48 |
00:02:51 |
of other possible words.
This evening, the subject will |
| 00:02:51 |
00:02:55 |
be after the financial crisis
come considered lessons |
| 00:02:55 |
00:02:59 |
learned. Here, the Federation of
Swiss Protestant Churches |
| 00:02:59 |
00:03:03 |
would like to invite you to talk
about the financial issue from |
| 00:03:03 |
00:03:07 |
the villages from the Church
point of view, and we have a |
| 00:03:07 |
00:03:11 |
position paper that is available
to you. Please read it and we |
| 00:03:11 |
00:03:14 |
will be happy to hear about
your opinions. Tomorrow, we |
| 00:03:15 |
00:03:18 |
will then speak about climate
change and then Friday |
| 00:03:18 |
00:03:21 |
evening, "Does Religion's
Claim to Truth Lead to |
| 00:03:21 |
00:03:25 |
Violence? Saturday, we will
then take up the "Challenge of |
| 00:03:25 |
00:03:29 |
the Aging Society." We will
also put the question, "Yes, we |
| 00:03:29 |
00:03:33 |
can or yes can we?" after a year
of Obama in the United States. |
| 00:03:33 |
00:03:37 |
And in the evening, it will be
"A World without Nuclear |
| 00:03:37 |
00:03:41 |
Weapons: Utopia." And in all
of these debates, we want to |
| 00:03:41 |
00:03:45 |
look at factual consequences,
what is pragmatic, the complex |
| 00:03:45 |
00:03:48 |
factual connections and human
rights. That is to say, |
| 00:03:48 |
00:03:52 |
everything that is fair and just
for all human beings that share |
| 00:03:52 |
00:03:56 |
a common fate and to see these
two principles on the same |
| 00:03:56 |
00:03:58 |
footing.
The open forum is the |
| 00:03:58 |
00:04:02 |
expression of a basic
conviction that was also shared |
| 00:04:02 |
00:04:05 |
by Arthur Rich, a pioneer in
crude determination of the |
| 00:04:05 |
00:04:09 |
economy when he postulated
that economic subjects should |
| 00:04:09 |
00:04:13 |
become economic citizens.
Recognize debate change, that |
| 00:04:13 |
00:04:16 |
is the purpose of the open
forum, and I would like to |
| 00:04:16 |
00:04:20 |
thank all the panelists and
particularly all those who are |
| 00:04:20 |
00:04:24 |
here, all the participants here at
this Alpine Middle School for |
| 00:04:25 |
00:04:28 |
participating in this year's
forum. Thank you. |
| 00:04:28 |
00:04:31 |
Welcome. Have a seat,
nameplates. Good afternoon, |
| 00:04:31 |
00:04:35 |
ladies and gentlemen. "In Italy,
under the Borgias, there |
| 00:04:35 |
00:04:39 |
reigned 30 years of war, terror,
murder, and assassination, but |
| 00:04:39 |
00:04:43 |
it also produced Michelangelo,
Leonardo da Vinci, and the |
| 00:04:43 |
00:04:46 |
Renaissance. Switzerland and
the Swiss lived in brotherly |
| 00:04:47 |
00:04:50 |
harmony for 500 years of
democracy and peace and what |
| 00:04:50 |
00:04:54 |
did they produce? The cuckoo
clock." This rather malicious |
| 00:04:54 |
00:04:57 |
sentence was spoken by Orson
Welles as the third main |
| 00:04:57 |
00:05:01 |
character in The Third Man and
the American Information |
| 00:05:01 |
00:05:05 |
Services today, as Orson
Welles, a lousy research. It's |
| 00:05:05 |
00:05:08 |
because the cuckoo clock
comes from the Black Forest |
| 00:05:08 |
00:05:13 |
but it did hurt me to the quick.
Is this the image that the world |
| 00:05:13 |
00:05:16 |
has of us? Does it see us as
peaceful bores skilled in |
| 00:05:16 |
00:05:20 |
electronics and fine mechanics
but meaningless, producing |
| 00:05:20 |
00:05:24 |
meaningless objectives but not
able to produce great feats? |
| 00:05:24 |
00:05:28 |
But after the work on the
minarets, I felt that peaceful |
| 00:05:28 |
00:05:31 |
bores is perhaps not the worst
image that we can convey. |
| 00:05:31 |
00:05:35 |
What if the world sees us as
evil and selfish or small- |
| 00:05:35 |
00:05:39 |
minded people or perhaps, the
world sees as self-confident |
| 00:05:39 |
00:05:43 |
hermits and loners, who like, at
the time, William Tell, would |
| 00:05:43 |
00:05:47 |
not let anyone tell them what
they had to do, or are we |
| 00:05:47 |
00:05:50 |
perhaps an example to be
copied? However, there is a lot |
| 00:05:50 |
00:05:54 |
of potential in this image and
metaphor of the cuckoo clock, |
| 00:05:54 |
00:05:58 |
so much so that before I came
to Davos, I bought a simple |
| 00:05:58 |
00:06:02 |
model of a cuckoo clock in
Zurich in a tourist shop that |
| 00:06:02 |
00:06:06 |
sells kitsch stuff, and it should
remind us that sometimes, even |
| 00:06:06 |
00:06:11 |
the clumsiest clich�s force us to
make a very clinical analysis to |
| 00:06:11 |
00:06:13 |
refute it.
But the clock is running, it's |
| 00:06:13 |
00:06:17 |
ticking and we only have a
little less than one hour to |
| 00:06:17 |
00:06:21 |
discuss with these brilliant
panelists the debates that the |
| 00:06:21 |
00:06:25 |
subjects that we have today,
and they are such excellent |
| 00:06:25 |
00:06:29 |
panelists and I'm sure that they
could speak for more than a |
| 00:06:29 |
00:06:32 |
quarter of an hour on the
subject. But if anyone speaks |
| 00:06:32 |
00:06:37 |
for too long, this is the cuckoo
clock that will simply interrupt |
| 00:06:37 |
00:06:41 |
your intervention. That is my
threat and the Damocles sword |
| 00:06:41 |
00:06:45 |
that is hanging over your head.
However, it may be that after |
| 00:06:45 |
00:06:49 |
one minute of intervention, I
will interrupt you and simply |
| 00:06:49 |
00:06:53 |
pass on the ball to another
panelist, but interrupting means |
| 00:06:53 |
00:06:56 |
breaking of the ball can be
passed back or to a third |
| 00:06:56 |
00:07:00 |
person. These panelists are
excellent people. Even the best |
| 00:07:00 |
00:07:04 |
monologue can be bettered by a
good dialogue. I know that at |
| 00:07:04 |
00:07:08 |
the open forum, we have a high
quality, highly interested |
| 00:07:08 |
00:07:11 |
public, so instead of making
long speeches and taking |
| 00:07:11 |
00:07:15 |
inventory, we should go right
into debate because you know |
| 00:07:15 |
00:07:19 |
the subjects very well.
I hope that we are all going to |
| 00:07:19 |
00:07:23 |
work together like the good
little cogwheels in a Swiss |
| 00:07:23 |
00:07:26 |
watch or Swiss movement.
That was my introduction. |
| 00:07:26 |
00:07:30 |
Now, I will simply lubricate
the wheels and the cogs as |
| 00:07:30 |
00:07:34 |
moderator and will shed light
on this dream team of a panel. I |
| 00:07:34 |
00:07:37 |
hope you will be able to
applaud and welcome the |
| 00:07:37 |
00:07:41 |
primus inter pares of the Swiss,
the very young but very |
| 00:07:41 |
00:07:44 |
experienced president of the
Swiss National Council, the |
| 00:07:44 |
00:07:47 |
lower chamber of the Swiss
Parliament. |
| 00:07:47 |
00:07:51 |
I am going to be very neutral
and I proceed by alphabetical |
| 00:07:51 |
00:07:54 |
order. We have one of the most
read and highly reputed |
| 00:07:54 |
00:07:58 |
historians, the Scot who
teaches in Harvard, the |
| 00:07:58 |
00:08:01 |
economic historian, Niall
Ferguson, ladies and |
| 00:08:01 |
00:08:03 |
gentlemen.
Governmental Switzerland is |
| 00:08:03 |
00:08:07 |
represented by no less than the
permanent representative of our |
| 00:08:07 |
00:08:11 |
country at the UN, Mr. Peter
Maurer. One big issue that we |
| 00:08:11 |
00:08:15 |
want to talk about today is how
are we seen from the outside, |
| 00:08:15 |
00:08:19 |
and who else could assess this
any better than the man who |
| 00:08:19 |
00:08:23 |
writes for the favorite daily of
the world elite, the Financial |
| 00:08:23 |
00:08:27 |
Times, and reports about
Switzerland and studied |
| 00:08:27 |
00:08:30 |
philosophy, politics, and
economics at the University of |
| 00:08:30 |
00:08:34 |
Oxford and has written his
dissertation on German and |
| 00:08:34 |
00:08:38 |
French politics and has written
for the Financial Times in |
| 00:08:38 |
00:08:40 |
various cities, Mr. Haig
Simonian. |
| 00:08:40 |
00:08:44 |
And last but not least of all,
coming from the most refined |
| 00:08:44 |
00:08:48 |
of Swiss universities, the
university of economics at the |
| 00:08:48 |
00:08:51 |
theoretical level, the
(inaudible) (10:43) producing |
| 00:08:51 |
00:08:55 |
future executives, deputy
director of the Institute for |
| 00:08:55 |
00:08:59 |
Ethics in Economics from the
University of St. Gallen, Ulrich |
| 00:08:59 |
00:09:01 |
Thielemann.
First question, to Pascale |
| 00:09:02 |
00:09:06 |
Bruderer, what comes to your
mind first of all when you think |
| 00:09:06 |
00:09:09 |
of Scotland just spontaneously?
Well, a wonderful language |
| 00:09:09 |
00:09:13 |
that I can hardly understand,
even though I do speak |
| 00:09:13 |
00:09:17 |
English. It's a bit like Swiss
German. And then pastures and |
| 00:09:17 |
00:09:21 |
the clich�, you wanted to hear
that, the stingy Scotsman, even |
| 00:09:21 |
00:09:24 |
too stingy to wear underwear at
times. |
| 00:09:24 |
00:09:28 |
What about the music the Scots
play? Is that another clich�? Do |
| 00:09:28 |
00:09:31 |
you still speak German? You
wrote a book at the time you |
| 00:09:32 |
00:09:35 |
lived in Hamburg.
It's a bit difficult for me to |
| 00:09:35 |
00:09:38 |
speak German but I'll try. Tell
me if I make too many |
| 00:09:38 |
00:09:41 |
mistakes.
Well, what did come to your |
| 00:09:41 |
00:09:44 |
mind first when you thought of
Switzerland? Not cuckoo |
| 00:09:44 |
00:09:47 |
clocks.
For a historian, the history of |
| 00:09:47 |
00:09:51 |
this country is very interesting
and also very important. When |
| 00:09:51 |
00:09:55 |
I was still studying in Oxford
and was teaching in Oxford, I |
| 00:09:55 |
00:09:59 |
didn't quite understand why we
were teaching or learning so |
| 00:09:59 |
00:10:03 |
little about Switzerland. Italy,
Germany, France but hardly |
| 00:10:03 |
00:10:07 |
anything about Switzerland.
Does it mean that no one was |
| 00:10:07 |
00:10:09 |
really interested in
Switzerland? |
| 00:10:09 |
00:10:12 |
Yes, that may be one answer.
It's really strange if one |
| 00:10:12 |
00:10:16 |
thought about it at all. Religion
was very important in |
| 00:10:16 |
00:10:20 |
Switzerland. I think of John
Calvin. Calvinism is extremely |
| 00:10:20 |
00:10:24 |
important in European history.
Max Huber's theory, for |
| 00:10:24 |
00:10:27 |
example, of the partisan ethic,
that's very much linked to |
| 00:10:28 |
00:10:31 |
Calvin and for economic
histories, Switzerland is also |
| 00:10:31 |
00:10:35 |
very important. But why does
the Western world not really |
| 00:10:35 |
00:10:38 |
show any interest in
Switzerland? I don't know. No |
| 00:10:38 |
00:10:42 |
explanation. But there is only
one historian, Jonathan |
| 00:10:42 |
00:10:45 |
Steinberg, who has written a
book about the history of |
| 00:10:45 |
00:10:49 |
Switzerland. I really have no
other explanation. As an |
| 00:10:49 |
00:10:53 |
economic historian, it's quite
obvious Switzerland is just as |
| 00:10:53 |
00:10:56 |
important a country as
England, for example, in the |
| 00:10:57 |
00:11:00 |
context of the history of the
Industrial Revolution, and we |
| 00:11:00 |
00:11:05 |
need to study it more. We have
to take it seriously and we are |
| 00:11:05 |
00:11:09 |
not taking it seriously. You just
think some peasants who are |
| 00:11:09 |
00:11:11 |
doing their work.
What about the other |
| 00:11:11 |
00:11:15 |
intellectual that was trained in
Oxford, Mr. Thielemann? Was |
| 00:11:15 |
00:11:17 |
there any interest in
Switzerland? |
| 00:11:17 |
00:11:21 |
No, not at all. The only thing
that we think of about |
| 00:11:21 |
00:11:25 |
Switzerland is tourism and
chocolates and happy cars and |
| 00:11:25 |
00:11:29 |
that's about the limits of my
knowledge or was when I came |
| 00:11:29 |
00:11:32 |
to Switzerland six years ago.
Do you have any explanation |
| 00:11:32 |
00:11:35 |
why Switzerland seems to be
under the radar? |
| 00:11:35 |
00:11:39 |
Well, there are several reasons.
Switzerland is quite small, |
| 00:11:39 |
00:11:43 |
plus/minus seven million
inhabitants, very neutral, no |
| 00:11:43 |
00:11:46 |
major wars, not much
destruction, no great battles. I |
| 00:11:46 |
00:11:49 |
think that's --
So no drama, no tragedies so |
| 00:11:49 |
00:11:53 |
no subject? Now, Mrs.
Bruderer, you are the first |
| 00:11:53 |
00:11:57 |
amongst all Swiss citizens, but
it's a bit like the Tall Poppy |
| 00:11:57 |
00:12:01 |
Syndrome in Switzerland. You
cut off the heads that seem to |
| 00:12:01 |
00:12:03 |
be greater.
Well, I'm only six feet tall. I |
| 00:12:04 |
00:12:07 |
am not the highest or the
tallest. In French, it's just we |
| 00:12:07 |
00:12:12 |
say the French of all citizens. I
think that is very appropriate. |
| 00:12:12 |
00:12:16 |
The Swiss would like to have a
president of the Parliament |
| 00:12:16 |
00:12:19 |
who is very close to the
population. Yes, this is very |
| 00:12:19 |
00:12:23 |
clear in the Swiss Sunday
newspapers and we just heard |
| 00:12:23 |
00:12:27 |
that what is not commensurate
with pragmatism is not fair for |
| 00:12:27 |
00:12:31 |
human justice. And I think the
forum is very good about |
| 00:12:31 |
00:12:34 |
showing this by organizing this
debate here today. |
| 00:12:34 |
00:12:38 |
So the official Switzerland is
not represented by you but by |
| 00:12:38 |
00:12:42 |
the representative at the UN,
the representative of the |
| 00:12:42 |
00:12:45 |
government of Switzerland in
UN. But you have already met |
| 00:12:45 |
00:12:49 |
other presidents of other
national parliaments. You've |
| 00:12:49 |
00:12:52 |
met the president of the
Hungarian Parliament? |
| 00:12:52 |
00:12:56 |
Yes, that's right, and also the
representative of the Saudi |
| 00:12:56 |
00:13:00 |
Arabian Parliament, because
the president will be visiting |
| 00:13:00 |
00:13:03 |
Switzerland in a short while.
So I keep hearing from |
| 00:13:03 |
00:13:07 |
everyone that Switzerland can
really play an important role at |
| 00:13:07 |
00:13:11 |
the international level as a
mediator. After the decision |
| 00:13:11 |
00:13:15 |
taken about the minarets in
Switzerland, it doesn't mean or |
| 00:13:15 |
00:13:19 |
didn't mean that all the
negotiations or talks only went |
| 00:13:19 |
00:13:22 |
in that direction, but
Switzerland is seen as a force |
| 00:13:22 |
00:13:26 |
to be countered with at the
international level. At least, |
| 00:13:26 |
00:13:30 |
that is what people tell me
when I meet them and when we |
| 00:13:30 |
00:13:33 |
talk about the role of
Switzerland. I also followed |
| 00:13:33 |
00:13:37 |
with very much interest what
has been said at -- no one has |
| 00:13:37 |
00:13:41 |
said that Switzerland isn't
important but it's simply not |
| 00:13:41 |
00:13:45 |
noticed. It isn't noticed enough.
People don't come up to you |
| 00:13:45 |
00:13:48 |
and say, "I'm so happy to be in
Swaziland?" |
| 00:13:48 |
00:13:52 |
No, usually, it's Sweden.
Sweden is often mistaken for |
| 00:13:52 |
00:13:54 |
Switzerland.
Now, before I turn to Mr. |
| 00:13:54 |
00:13:58 |
Maurer, Mr. Thielemann, you
teach in Switzerland but you |
| 00:13:58 |
00:14:02 |
come from Germany. There is
a very interesting relationship |
| 00:14:02 |
00:14:05 |
between Switzerland and
Germany. It makes you laugh |
| 00:14:05 |
00:14:09 |
but that's also quite interesting.
How are we perceived in |
| 00:14:09 |
00:14:12 |
Germany? As the sweet little
neighbor? |
| 00:14:12 |
00:14:15 |
No, I really can't tell you
because I've been living in |
| 00:14:15 |
00:14:19 |
Switzerland for too long. There
is a blend of that. Switzerland |
| 00:14:20 |
00:14:23 |
is simply too small to be
perceived but it is perceived as |
| 00:14:23 |
00:14:27 |
a very strange country from
various points of views. It's not |
| 00:14:28 |
00:14:31 |
a member of the EU. It speaks
nearly the same language as in |
| 00:14:32 |
00:14:35 |
the country that I come from,
the big neighbor. So I don't |
| 00:14:35 |
00:14:40 |
really know what the picture,
the image is. It's contradictory. |
| 00:14:40 |
00:14:43 |
There is the banking secrecy
that plays a role, then the |
| 00:14:43 |
00:14:47 |
tradition of projecting and
defending human rights, |
| 00:14:47 |
00:14:50 |
Geneva, the Red Cross.
Everyone knows that the Red |
| 00:14:50 |
00:14:53 |
Cross has its origin in
Switzerland, so it's a very |
| 00:14:53 |
00:14:56 |
ambivalent image.
And that's not just seen by |
| 00:14:56 |
00:15:00 |
specialists and the elite. It's
also the man in the street? |
| 00:15:00 |
00:15:04 |
Yes, yes. I think everyone
knows that the Red Cross |
| 00:15:04 |
00:15:07 |
comes from Switzerland.
Everyone knows that the UN |
| 00:15:07 |
00:15:11 |
has some headquarters in
Geneva so it's an ambivalent |
| 00:15:11 |
00:15:14 |
image, perception.
Well, we'll take account of |
| 00:15:14 |
00:15:18 |
that. Now, Mr. Maurer, you are
just one out of 193 countries |
| 00:15:18 |
00:15:22 |
represented at the UN and how
are you perceived by the other |
| 00:15:22 |
00:15:25 |
representatives at the UN? Is
this a country that produces |
| 00:15:26 |
00:15:29 |
cuckoo clocks or not?
No, Switzerland does have its |
| 00:15:29 |
00:15:33 |
political profile at the UN. It is
perceived as a country only to |
| 00:15:33 |
00:15:37 |
the extent that it contributes to
the work done at the UN, |
| 00:15:37 |
00:15:41 |
contributes to help solving
problems that are debated at the |
| 00:15:41 |
00:15:45 |
UN to promote peace and
security, humanitarian aid, or |
| 00:15:45 |
00:15:49 |
protection of the environment.
Is this a positive perception? |
| 00:15:49 |
00:15:52 |
Yes, this is a positive
perception because it has its |
| 00:15:52 |
00:15:56 |
policies, because it does
contribute to solving these |
| 00:15:56 |
00:15:59 |
problems. We are esteemed by
the 193 other UN members. |
| 00:15:59 |
00:16:03 |
Okay, debate over, problem
solved. But is there a problem |
| 00:16:03 |
00:16:07 |
or not? I'm sure that
Switzerland is either perceived |
| 00:16:07 |
00:16:11 |
in different ways or not
perceived at all. We'll see that |
| 00:16:11 |
00:16:14 |
depending on the
circumstances. But would you |
| 00:16:14 |
00:16:17 |
say that there is a problem,
Mrs. Bruderer, because of the |
| 00:16:17 |
00:16:21 |
banking secrecy, for example?
You're really specifically |
| 00:16:21 |
00:16:25 |
mentioning the banking secrecy
and not just in general terms? |
| 00:16:25 |
00:16:29 |
Yes, there's something to that.
I think we need to -- we owe |
| 00:16:29 |
00:16:33 |
explanations to the outside
world regarding the banking |
| 00:16:33 |
00:16:37 |
secrecy. There is a reproach
made. We haven't really done |
| 00:16:37 |
00:16:40 |
very much enough about it.
There are certain voices that |
| 00:16:40 |
00:16:44 |
have been speaking out against
the banking secrecy. |
| 00:16:44 |
00:16:46 |
One of the voices is yours,
right? |
| 00:16:46 |
00:16:50 |
No, I don't think you can say
that. But it's mainly the left |
| 00:16:50 |
00:16:54 |
that has spoken out very clearly
against the banking secrecy and |
| 00:16:54 |
00:16:58 |
there is also this debate about
tax evasion and fraud. Had one |
| 00:16:59 |
00:17:02 |
spoken about that a few years
ago, one would have not been |
| 00:17:02 |
00:17:06 |
seen very positively in
Switzerland. Our early warning |
| 00:17:06 |
00:17:10 |
system in Switzerland has to
come into operation better so |
| 00:17:10 |
00:17:14 |
that we don't have to defend
ourselves and do it from a |
| 00:17:14 |
00:17:17 |
corner with our backs to the
wall. We need to react much |
| 00:17:17 |
00:17:20 |
more early.
Mr. Simonian, you have been |
| 00:17:20 |
00:17:24 |
observing us for very many
years. Do you feel that this is a |
| 00:17:24 |
00:17:27 |
discussion that is being swept
under the carpet? |
| 00:17:27 |
00:17:31 |
No, I wouldn't say so. I agree
with Mrs. Bruderer. The |
| 00:17:31 |
00:17:35 |
banking secrecy is not only
important for one sector of the |
| 00:17:35 |
00:17:38 |
economy but for the entire
economy. For decades, maybe |
| 00:17:38 |
00:17:42 |
cheap capital has been banked
in Switzerland and has been |
| 00:17:42 |
00:17:46 |
used for the Swiss economy.
Now, the Swiss banks in this |
| 00:17:46 |
00:17:49 |
phase of transition have to find
a different solution. |
| 00:17:49 |
00:17:53 |
Unfortunately, the politicians
have not found a solution. They |
| 00:17:53 |
00:17:58 |
failed and it's going to be very
interesting to see what solution |
| 00:17:58 |
00:18:01 |
the bankers will come up with
because they have failed. |
| 00:18:01 |
00:18:05 |
Can you say that the bankers
and the politicians have failed? |
| 00:18:06 |
00:18:08 |
No, it's the government that
has failed. |
| 00:18:08 |
00:18:12 |
Now, why? Why is that?
Well, first of all, I want to |
| 00:18:12 |
00:18:16 |
make it quite clear that I am not
the government and I am a |
| 00:18:16 |
00:18:19 |
representative of the
government and I really am |
| 00:18:19 |
00:18:23 |
more part of the administration.
I agree with Mrs. Bruderer, |
| 00:18:23 |
00:18:26 |
many voices and people have
warned us not only in |
| 00:18:26 |
00:18:30 |
Switzerland but outside of the
country and many who used to |
| 00:18:30 |
00:18:33 |
defend the banking secrecy
have now changed their |
| 00:18:33 |
00:18:37 |
position and have invited us to
change our position, for many |
| 00:18:37 |
00:18:41 |
of the Swiss representatives
working throughout the world |
| 00:18:41 |
00:18:44 |
have noticed that this
acceptance is dwindling. |
| 00:18:44 |
00:18:48 |
The profile of a country
depends very much also on |
| 00:18:48 |
00:18:52 |
how a country is perceived, and
this is particularly so for a |
| 00:18:52 |
00:18:56 |
small country like Switzerland
that needs to be perceived very |
| 00:18:56 |
00:18:59 |
clearly. That's part of the
reality and one has to |
| 00:18:59 |
00:19:03 |
understand in Switzerland that
abroad, these subjects are |
| 00:19:03 |
00:19:06 |
simply not accepted in the
same way as they are in |
| 00:19:06 |
00:19:10 |
Switzerland so there is this gap
between self perception and |
| 00:19:10 |
00:19:14 |
perception on the outside.
Mr. Ferguson, you are the guru |
| 00:19:14 |
00:19:18 |
worldwide when it comes to
the attitude a country has to |
| 00:19:18 |
00:19:22 |
money to finance, and you've
also said this very clearly in the |
| 00:19:22 |
00:19:26 |
book you wrote, the role of
money. Someone said that if a |
| 00:19:26 |
00:19:30 |
banker, a Swiss banker -- if you
see a Swiss banker jumping out |
| 00:19:30 |
00:19:34 |
of the window, jump after him
because there is some money to |
| 00:19:34 |
00:19:38 |
be made out of it. Would you
agree that Switzerland is only |
| 00:19:38 |
00:19:41 |
intent on money?
Yes, to some extent, especially |
| 00:19:41 |
00:19:45 |
if the banker is employed by
the UBS. Well, maybe he will |
| 00:19:45 |
00:19:49 |
jump out of the window for
other reasons. A year ago, I |
| 00:19:49 |
00:19:53 |
would have said that the Swiss
model was in danger, was very |
| 00:19:53 |
00:19:56 |
weak. This was at the time
when everyone was talking |
| 00:19:56 |
00:20:00 |
about a world order. The G20
was in a position of laying |
| 00:20:00 |
00:20:04 |
down the rules or changing the
rules of the financial world |
| 00:20:04 |
00:20:06 |
order.
Now, in the last two months, |
| 00:20:06 |
00:20:10 |
the situation has changed again.
In the U.S. and in Great |
| 00:20:10 |
00:20:13 |
Britain, governments are
diverging. They're going into |
| 00:20:13 |
00:20:17 |
different directions and this
means that Switzerland has a |
| 00:20:17 |
00:20:21 |
possibility of simply
maintaining the status quo. If |
| 00:20:21 |
00:20:25 |
the international system is not
modified, nothing will change, |
| 00:20:25 |
00:20:29 |
then Switzerland will simply
maintain the status quo. In fact, |
| 00:20:29 |
00:20:33 |
there are only three important
international financial centers: |
| 00:20:33 |
00:20:36 |
New York, London, and
Switzerland. If London and |
| 00:20:36 |
00:20:40 |
New York agree about
something, if they agree that |
| 00:20:40 |
00:20:43 |
the system has to be changed,
then Switzerland has no |
| 00:20:43 |
00:20:46 |
alternative. It will have to
follow suit. |
| 00:20:46 |
00:20:50 |
But London and New York are
not in agreement so this is an |
| 00:20:50 |
00:20:54 |
opportunity for Switzerland.
I think we are talking about |
| 00:20:54 |
00:20:58 |
Switzerland but the problem is
much bigger than Switzerland. |
| 00:20:58 |
00:21:01 |
Yesterday, I listened very
carefully to what was said at |
| 00:21:01 |
00:21:05 |
the opening session of the
World Economic Forum and |
| 00:21:05 |
00:21:09 |
everyone was saying we have
to pull on the same or we all |
| 00:21:09 |
00:21:12 |
have to go in the same
direction. We have to make |
| 00:21:12 |
00:21:16 |
sure that there are certain rules,
but you are not very optimistic, |
| 00:21:16 |
00:21:18 |
no?
No, I'm rather pessimistic. |
| 00:21:18 |
00:21:21 |
After the disaster in
Massachusetts where a |
| 00:21:21 |
00:21:25 |
Republican has taken the seat
of the Democrats, there seems |
| 00:21:25 |
00:21:29 |
to be a bit of a wind of panic
blowing through Washington. |
| 00:21:29 |
00:21:33 |
There was an urge to change
the rules but this seems to have |
| 00:21:33 |
00:21:37 |
changed. They may still be
changed but the government of |
| 00:21:37 |
00:21:40 |
the UK has gone off into a
different direction. |
| 00:21:40 |
00:21:44 |
And Switzerland can then be an
opportunist and make use of |
| 00:21:44 |
00:21:47 |
this situation?
Yes, yes, it's very unfortunate |
| 00:21:47 |
00:21:50 |
because we need an
international solution if we |
| 00:21:50 |
00:21:54 |
want to maintain or restore the
financial order and the |
| 00:21:54 |
00:21:57 |
possibility is dwindling.
So if nothing changes, we'll |
| 00:21:57 |
00:22:00 |
stay where we are?
Well, I don't think that the |
| 00:22:00 |
00:22:04 |
Swiss government intends to
use the discrepancies that are |
| 00:22:04 |
00:22:08 |
existing in the different
positions. Maybe these are just |
| 00:22:08 |
00:22:12 |
temporary. I think we can take
time and during this time, we |
| 00:22:12 |
00:22:16 |
can ensure that we can change
the way we act so that the |
| 00:22:16 |
00:22:19 |
transition to a regulatory
environment, which is |
| 00:22:19 |
00:22:22 |
improved, can go ahead
smoothly. So I don't think |
| 00:22:22 |
00:22:26 |
there is a fundamental problem
in that. I think it's just a |
| 00:22:26 |
00:22:30 |
question of time. The Swiss
government has to use this time |
| 00:22:30 |
00:22:35 |
intelligently in order to ensure
that it can place itself better as |
| 00:22:35 |
00:22:39 |
a financial center in the world
and ensure its integrity and its |
| 00:22:39 |
00:22:42 |
position.
Well, you're like the public in |
| 00:22:42 |
00:22:45 |
America. You read about these
battles in the paper where |
| 00:22:45 |
00:22:49 |
Krugman, he is more on the left
an economist, you're more of a |
| 00:22:50 |
00:22:53 |
conservative academic.
Well, it has little to do with |
| 00:22:53 |
00:22:57 |
politics. It's a question of the
theory. He is a Keynesian |
| 00:22:57 |
00:23:00 |
through and through and I'm
somewhat skeptical about |
| 00:23:00 |
00:23:05 |
public debt being the solution.
But you are a European liberal. |
| 00:23:05 |
00:23:08 |
You're economically liberal
from the European meaning. |
| 00:23:08 |
00:23:12 |
Would you say that the Swiss
can keep banking secrecy? |
| 00:23:12 |
00:23:16 |
Absolutely not. No, that cannot
be morally justified. It's |
| 00:23:16 |
00:23:20 |
difficult to say whether it will
survive or not. It seems that the |
| 00:23:20 |
00:23:23 |
outlook is better than it was a
year ago for that. |
| 00:23:23 |
00:23:27 |
Mr. Thielemann, last year, you
went to Berlin to the |
| 00:23:27 |
00:23:30 |
Committee of the Bundestag
where there were discussions |
| 00:23:31 |
00:23:34 |
relating to banking secrecy.
You raised a lot of criticisms |
| 00:23:34 |
00:23:38 |
about Switzerland. Why? Did
you think it was so morally |
| 00:23:38 |
00:23:41 |
wrong that you had to read
your host of rights? |
| 00:23:41 |
00:23:44 |
No, it was a complete
misunderstanding. I didn't |
| 00:23:44 |
00:23:48 |
speak about my own views. I
was invited by the Finance |
| 00:23:48 |
00:23:52 |
Committee of the Bundestag.
That was a great opportunity. |
| 00:23:52 |
00:23:56 |
The banking secrecy that was
discussed was between the tax |
| 00:23:56 |
00:23:59 |
authorities so I was speaking
about that. When this |
| 00:23:59 |
00:24:03 |
discussion began to be heard in
Switzerland, we were familiar |
| 00:24:03 |
00:24:07 |
with the arguments and there
was very little discussion. Very |
| 00:24:07 |
00:24:11 |
little was taken seriously.
We heard some very farfetched |
| 00:24:11 |
00:24:15 |
arguments. It's good that the
discussion took place but the |
| 00:24:15 |
00:24:19 |
committee that I went to was
not a public committee and |
| 00:24:19 |
00:24:22 |
then the question was put to me
of whether I felt it was |
| 00:24:22 |
00:24:26 |
necessary that Germany should
make a law which would |
| 00:24:26 |
00:24:30 |
provide for sanctions for tax
havens like Switzerland. And I |
| 00:24:30 |
00:24:33 |
said that that would be
necessary because for a place |
| 00:24:33 |
00:24:37 |
like Switzerland, there is no
understanding of the problems. |
| 00:24:37 |
00:24:42 |
There is no understanding and I
think that the dominant part of |
| 00:24:42 |
00:24:45 |
the political elite have not
come to the understanding. It |
| 00:24:46 |
00:24:49 |
has very little to do with
Switzerland but rather a |
| 00:24:49 |
00:24:53 |
libertarian economic viewpoint.
It's a -- if you like a moral |
| 00:24:53 |
00:24:57 |
mission, and I don't think that
this is a view which can be |
| 00:24:57 |
00:25:01 |
supported in the long term.
The problem is in Switzerland, |
| 00:25:01 |
00:25:04 |
there hasn't been a general
public debate which has gone |
| 00:25:05 |
00:25:08 |
into this question in depth.
Now, the Swiss population has |
| 00:25:08 |
00:25:12 |
clearly spoken against the
question of banking secrecy. |
| 00:25:12 |
00:25:16 |
Obviously, banking secrecy
could be kept but not if it's |
| 00:25:16 |
00:25:20 |
being used to dodge taxes. I
think recent opinion polls, in |
| 00:25:20 |
00:25:23 |
the SonntagsZeitung, for
example, have shown that |
| 00:25:23 |
00:25:27 |
result and so it's clear. It's not
pleasant to say but the |
| 00:25:27 |
00:25:30 |
government needs to openly
bring this issue to public |
| 00:25:30 |
00:25:33 |
debate.
Churchill, I believe said you |
| 00:25:33 |
00:25:36 |
can't criticize your home
government while you're |
| 00:25:36 |
00:25:39 |
abroad. You should have done
it here. |
| 00:25:39 |
00:25:42 |
Well, Mr. Thielemann said
something very important and |
| 00:25:42 |
00:25:46 |
I'd like to stress it. Banking
secrecy per se can be |
| 00:25:46 |
00:25:49 |
understood in different ways. It
can be understood as the |
| 00:25:50 |
00:25:53 |
protection of the private brains.
The automatic change of |
| 00:25:53 |
00:25:57 |
information has always been
perceived negatively by the |
| 00:25:57 |
00:26:00 |
Swiss population.
But there is an important |
| 00:26:00 |
00:26:04 |
distinction to be made between
the ways in which tax are |
| 00:26:04 |
00:26:07 |
evaded, tax evasion and tax
fraud, so there are different |
| 00:26:07 |
00:26:12 |
issues and the public needs to
be aware that there are different |
| 00:26:12 |
00:26:16 |
issues. And I regret the way
that things have been done. It's |
| 00:26:16 |
00:26:19 |
not a question of eliminating
banking secrecy but simply |
| 00:26:19 |
00:26:23 |
eliminating those elements
which are not justifiable and |
| 00:26:23 |
00:26:27 |
which are now under pressure.
But the actual protection of the |
| 00:26:27 |
00:26:31 |
privates here is not in question.
Now, what getting rid of |
| 00:26:31 |
00:26:35 |
banking secrecy means is
misunderstood. It's as if all of a |
| 00:26:35 |
00:26:39 |
sudden, you could read
people's bank accounts in the |
| 00:26:39 |
00:26:42 |
newspapers. Now, we are
simply talking about relating to |
| 00:26:42 |
00:26:46 |
other tax authorities who are
themselves subjected to |
| 00:26:46 |
00:26:49 |
secrecy. So people lose sight of
the issues. |
| 00:26:49 |
00:26:51 |
What does the Financial Times
think? |
| 00:26:51 |
00:26:55 |
I think, well, over these last
few minutes, we've seen the |
| 00:26:55 |
00:26:59 |
ambiguity here. We talked
about two different elements |
| 00:26:59 |
00:27:02 |
and I must say that I, too, am
divided on this. On the one |
| 00:27:03 |
00:27:06 |
hand, I cannot support tax
evasion and in the Financial |
| 00:27:06 |
00:27:10 |
Times, we would never do that.
Particularly today when so |
| 00:27:10 |
00:27:14 |
many states are in such
desperate need of revenues, it's |
| 00:27:14 |
00:27:18 |
even less justifiable today than
it was in the past. But what |
| 00:27:18 |
00:27:21 |
about active protection? I
believe that we have right to |
| 00:27:22 |
00:27:25 |
our private data.
Obviously, there are situations |
| 00:27:25 |
00:27:29 |
where you need to give your
information to third parties, |
| 00:27:29 |
00:27:32 |
doctors in criminal cases, for
example, but do I want some |
| 00:27:32 |
00:27:36 |
kind of Big Brother? Obviously
not. And what we all fear is |
| 00:27:36 |
00:27:41 |
that our tax authorities, who are
interested in our capital and |
| 00:27:41 |
00:27:44 |
income revenues, may take
upon themselves some of this |
| 00:27:44 |
00:27:47 |
Big Brother role.
Maybe people in England |
| 00:27:47 |
00:27:51 |
respect the fact that the Swiss
defend themselves against the |
| 00:27:51 |
00:27:54 |
state.
Well, I wouldn't just go that far |
| 00:27:54 |
00:27:58 |
but England does have a long
liberal tradition. As you know, |
| 00:27:58 |
00:28:02 |
we have no personal identity
cards. We only have a passport. |
| 00:28:02 |
00:28:06 |
This is one perspective of the
unique British character. But I |
| 00:28:06 |
00:28:09 |
think there would be an
understanding not for the Swiss |
| 00:28:09 |
00:28:14 |
system per se but the fact that a
country could choose its own |
| 00:28:14 |
00:28:16 |
path.
If Switzerland, Mr. Ferguson, |
| 00:28:16 |
00:28:20 |
has these conflicts with other
countries, is it only going to get |
| 00:28:20 |
00:28:23 |
a bad image with the
governments or with the |
| 00:28:23 |
00:28:27 |
people, the man in the street,
and the public at large? |
| 00:28:27 |
00:28:31 |
Well, I think it is a problem
which goes beyond the views |
| 00:28:31 |
00:28:34 |
of the government. I don't
know how broad the discussion |
| 00:28:34 |
00:28:38 |
that took place here was but
when books came out about |
| 00:28:38 |
00:28:41 |
Switzerland's role in the
Second World War, Harold |
| 00:28:41 |
00:28:45 |
James' book on the role of the
Deutsche Bank and the gold |
| 00:28:45 |
00:28:49 |
operations of Deutsche bank in
Switzerland in the Second |
| 00:28:49 |
00:28:52 |
World War, now, when that
book was published, it left a |
| 00:28:52 |
00:28:57 |
bad impression of Switzerland.
So it seemed that Swiss utility |
| 00:28:57 |
00:29:01 |
had no financial dimension and
it certainly played an important |
| 00:29:01 |
00:29:04 |
role for me as a historian.
And does it cause any damage |
| 00:29:05 |
00:29:08 |
to people like us less?
Well, it is a problem, one of |
| 00:29:08 |
00:29:12 |
many. As I was walking here
today, I met Paul Collier, the |
| 00:29:12 |
00:29:16 |
most famous economist for
Africa in England, if not the |
| 00:29:16 |
00:29:19 |
world, and he wrote a book
called The Bottom Billion, |
| 00:29:19 |
00:29:23 |
which was a book that clearly
stated a very important |
| 00:29:23 |
00:29:26 |
question. How much of the
money which is given to Africa |
| 00:29:26 |
00:29:30 |
has actually ended up in Swiss
bank accounts? That's an |
| 00:29:30 |
00:29:34 |
important question. If people in
England or America are talking |
| 00:29:34 |
00:29:38 |
about Switzerland, questions
like that always come up. |
| 00:29:38 |
00:29:42 |
Hmm, so that's poisonous, isn't
it? I mean even the organizers |
| 00:29:42 |
00:29:46 |
here asked whether we were a
rogue state in the program for |
| 00:29:46 |
00:29:50 |
the open forum. Now, that's a
question. Are we a rogue state? |
| 00:29:50 |
00:29:53 |
Lenin said that we were the
world's -- that we were |
| 00:29:53 |
00:29:57 |
something similar. Is that a
problem? Is that something that |
| 00:29:57 |
00:30:01 |
could impact us at the UN?
Well, we're a multifaceted |
| 00:30:01 |
00:30:05 |
country and we have many
different activities and I don't |
| 00:30:05 |
00:30:09 |
think we can say that the image
of Switzerland is one thing |
| 00:30:09 |
00:30:13 |
alone. I think it's multifaceted
as well. If we're talking about |
| 00:30:13 |
00:30:17 |
banking secrecy, then we have
a problem of recognition in |
| 00:30:17 |
00:30:20 |
different industrialized
countries and we also have a |
| 00:30:20 |
00:30:24 |
problem of what was just
talked about a moment, with |
| 00:30:24 |
00:30:27 |
money from other countries
ending up in Swiss bank |
| 00:30:27 |
00:30:29 |
accounts.
But we also have to ask the |
| 00:30:29 |
00:30:33 |
question about what is the
attractiveness of the banking |
| 00:30:33 |
00:30:36 |
secrecy and why are they
leaving other countries? |
| 00:30:36 |
00:30:40 |
Because of bad governance,
because of bad conditions. |
| 00:30:40 |
00:30:44 |
If I can be very strict about
this, there are very few |
| 00:30:44 |
00:30:47 |
countries who allow
themselves to influence the |
| 00:30:47 |
00:30:50 |
autonomy of other countries
who don't recognize the |
| 00:30:50 |
00:30:54 |
autonomy, and Switzerland
hasn't recognized that it is |
| 00:30:54 |
00:30:58 |
different from other countries
in the way that it adopts an |
| 00:30:58 |
00:31:01 |
authentic position.
Now, you, I understand that |
| 00:31:01 |
00:31:04 |
you are representing the
government but I'm surprised |
| 00:31:04 |
00:31:08 |
that you don't recognize the
problems of the other positions |
| 00:31:08 |
00:31:12 |
that are being argued for. I
think it is unbelievable to say |
| 00:31:12 |
00:31:16 |
that it's legitimate to influence
the tax autonomy of other |
| 00:31:16 |
00:31:20 |
countries because their taxes
are too high. It's actually |
| 00:31:20 |
00:31:23 |
undermining the autonomy of
other countries. The |
| 00:31:23 |
00:31:27 |
international community needs,
as a whole, including |
| 00:31:27 |
00:31:30 |
Switzerland, to recognize
legitimate tax autonomy of |
| 00:31:30 |
00:31:33 |
other countries.
Well, I think that you can |
| 00:31:33 |
00:31:37 |
harmonize taxes at the
international level. I think the |
| 00:31:37 |
00:31:41 |
international level is the way
forward. There are pull and |
| 00:31:41 |
00:31:44 |
push factors of the banking
secrecy but these questions are |
| 00:31:45 |
00:31:48 |
legitimate and we need to ask
them, and the good governance |
| 00:31:48 |
00:31:51 |
question needs to be asked as
well. |
| 00:31:51 |
00:31:54 |
How do you ask the question in
the Financial Times? |
| 00:31:54 |
00:31:58 |
We're a country that is not
sufficiently aware of what's |
| 00:31:58 |
00:32:02 |
going on elsewhere. Well, there
are two different parts. One is |
| 00:32:02 |
00:32:06 |
that we look at the example of
the Geneva bankers who say |
| 00:32:06 |
00:32:10 |
that they are in the fifth or sixth
generation of Geneva bankers. |
| 00:32:10 |
00:32:14 |
It's very difficult to convince
these people that what worked |
| 00:32:14 |
00:32:18 |
five generations ago, 100 years
ago doesn't necessarily work |
| 00:32:18 |
00:32:22 |
today. They say that their
ancestors bought back money |
| 00:32:22 |
00:32:25 |
from an African country
because it was suffering from |
| 00:32:25 |
00:32:29 |
inflation and bad governance
so it was quite justified taking |
| 00:32:29 |
00:32:33 |
money from Jewish survivors
as well, and it's as if that |
| 00:32:33 |
00:32:38 |
morality is still justified today.
It's obviously very difficult in |
| 00:32:38 |
00:32:41 |
that way to describe the
situation fully because we are |
| 00:32:41 |
00:32:45 |
facing that kind of mentality
from Geneva and Zurich |
| 00:32:45 |
00:32:47 |
bankers.
Now, the other way is |
| 00:32:47 |
00:32:51 |
whistleblowers, people who
will pass on information. UBS, |
| 00:32:51 |
00:32:54 |
as Mr. Ferguson mentioned, is
one of the best examples of |
| 00:32:54 |
00:32:58 |
most recent years. So there
have been examples in |
| 00:32:58 |
00:33:02 |
Liechtenstein where employees
of not a particularly senior |
| 00:33:02 |
00:33:05 |
position but who were in
sensitive positions stole |
| 00:33:05 |
00:33:09 |
information and then sold it, in
one case, directed to the |
| 00:33:09 |
00:33:13 |
German authorities and another
attempt failed to sell it to the |
| 00:33:13 |
00:33:17 |
German authorities and a third
attempt again to the French |
| 00:33:17 |
00:33:21 |
authorities. So it's possible to
use whistleblowers to find out |
| 00:33:21 |
00:33:24 |
what's going on.
Can I bring up another point |
| 00:33:24 |
00:33:28 |
which I think is important to
me as a diplomat? We've said |
| 00:33:28 |
00:33:32 |
that governments have failed to
recognize in time that our |
| 00:33:32 |
00:33:35 |
understanding of banking
secrecy, of the understanding |
| 00:33:35 |
00:33:39 |
of banking secrecy is
predominantly negative. Now, |
| 00:33:39 |
00:33:43 |
there is a discrepancy between
external and internal views and |
| 00:33:43 |
00:33:47 |
the challenge of domestic
political positions and beliefs is |
| 00:33:47 |
00:33:51 |
very difficult to bring in to line
with the views that are held |
| 00:33:51 |
00:33:55 |
abroad. Every country has its
issues which it has difficulty |
| 00:33:55 |
00:33:57 |
discussing with its foreign
partners. |
| 00:33:58 |
00:34:01 |
The democratic process in our
countries can be used to |
| 00:34:01 |
00:34:05 |
express the positions and then
it's up to diplomacy to |
| 00:34:05 |
00:34:08 |
communicate those abroad so
that we can find solutions to |
| 00:34:09 |
00:34:12 |
national and international
trends and try and bridge the |
| 00:34:12 |
00:34:16 |
discrepancies and the
divergences. And then we have |
| 00:34:16 |
00:34:20 |
multilateral agencies like the
UN, for example, where there |
| 00:34:20 |
00:34:23 |
are economic and political
bodies where it is possible to |
| 00:34:23 |
00:34:27 |
express your own positions, to
listen to other positions, and |
| 00:34:27 |
00:34:31 |
understand one another.
Now, it's very difficult for the |
| 00:34:31 |
00:34:35 |
politicians, which has the
public on its back. The public |
| 00:34:35 |
00:34:39 |
in Switzerland, they're very
powerful and we have direct |
| 00:34:39 |
00:34:43 |
democracy so it's very difficult
for the government to deal with |
| 00:34:43 |
00:34:46 |
such issues.
Well, it's difficult but it's very |
| 00:34:46 |
00:34:50 |
exciting. We have to have
direct contact with the Swiss |
| 00:34:50 |
00:34:54 |
people and I believe that that's
right because it compels us. |
| 00:34:54 |
00:34:57 |
And as politicians, I can't
speak on behalf of the |
| 00:34:57 |
00:35:01 |
government but we have to
constantly reflect about our |
| 00:35:01 |
00:35:05 |
conduct, about our actions, and
we also need to think about |
| 00:35:05 |
00:35:08 |
whether we're being
understood, and I think that |
| 00:35:08 |
00:35:11 |
that's a crucial element which
we cannot go without. |
| 00:35:11 |
00:35:15 |
And then I'd like to touch upon
another point because we have |
| 00:35:15 |
00:35:19 |
financial experts here. I think
that in Switzerland, we have |
| 00:35:19 |
00:35:23 |
obviously an important
financial center. We have |
| 00:35:23 |
00:35:26 |
know-how. We have other
advantages, which means that |
| 00:35:26 |
00:35:30 |
we can be very optimistic about
the future without necessarily |
| 00:35:30 |
00:35:32 |
worrying about banking
secrecy. |
| 00:35:32 |
00:35:36 |
Well, yes, obviously, and over
the next two years, we will see |
| 00:35:36 |
00:35:40 |
a lot of negotiations about
banking secrecy will be |
| 00:35:40 |
00:35:44 |
reduced. But the Swiss,
Switzerland itself as a financial |
| 00:35:44 |
00:35:48 |
center is certainly not on the
way out. It just has to be quite |
| 00:35:48 |
00:35:52 |
clever in its marketing so that it
can sell its virtues. It's a long |
| 00:35:52 |
00:35:55 |
and convincing list but that's
your job. |
| 00:35:55 |
00:35:59 |
Yes, well, that's our job. I
believe that too. Can I ask |
| 00:35:59 |
00:36:02 |
another reply to Mr.
Thielemann because he didn't |
| 00:36:02 |
00:36:04 |
really find my question
legitimate? |
| 00:36:04 |
00:36:09 |
I think that the problem that we
face is that the questions that |
| 00:36:09 |
00:36:13 |
we're talking about might not
be ethically legitimate but they |
| 00:36:13 |
00:36:16 |
are politically legitimate
because it's being asked. |
| 00:36:16 |
00:36:19 |
But what's the substance of the
question? |
| 00:36:19 |
00:36:23 |
Once question comes up in
politics, a legitimate question. |
| 00:36:23 |
00:36:26 |
Well, you're saying good
governance is legitimate basis |
| 00:36:27 |
00:36:30 |
for Switzerland refusing the
exchange of information. |
| 00:36:30 |
00:36:34 |
Well, what I said was that if
we're talking about banking |
| 00:36:34 |
00:36:37 |
secrecy, then we cannot just
discuss banking secrecy |
| 00:36:37 |
00:36:41 |
attracting flight money but we
have to ask at the same time |
| 00:36:41 |
00:36:45 |
why this money is in flight,
why it's leaving countries and |
| 00:36:45 |
00:36:47 |
coming to Swiss bank
accounts. |
| 00:36:47 |
00:36:51 |
Well, if you look at Germany,
the tax burden is lower than at |
| 00:36:51 |
00:36:54 |
Switzerland. Middle-sized
companies are suffering |
| 00:36:55 |
00:36:59 |
because there isn't a -- it's not
possible to raise taxes to a |
| 00:36:59 |
00:37:03 |
certain level because there are
tax havens such as Switzerland. |
| 00:37:03 |
00:37:07 |
But if this were to be allowed,
then it would have to be put on |
| 00:37:07 |
00:37:10 |
to a frozen account and
certainly not serve |
| 00:37:10 |
00:37:14 |
Switzerland's own interest and
I'm sure that you'd agree with |
| 00:37:14 |
00:37:18 |
that. You have a moral duty.
I said it was legitimate to put |
| 00:37:18 |
00:37:22 |
the question and to ask about
the two aspects or factors. If |
| 00:37:22 |
00:37:26 |
you look at it historically, fiscal
competition is practiced in |
| 00:37:26 |
00:37:30 |
Switzerland. It's also
articulated by politicians, well, |
| 00:37:30 |
00:37:34 |
with also an internal kind of
emigration and variations and |
| 00:37:34 |
00:37:38 |
differences in -- counter
differences. I'm just trying to |
| 00:37:38 |
00:37:40 |
explain why it is a legitimate
question. |
| 00:37:40 |
00:37:44 |
Well, of course you can have
different opinions. Franz Jaeger |
| 00:37:44 |
00:37:48 |
would say, for example, if we
are a tax oasis, then Germany is |
| 00:37:49 |
00:37:52 |
a tax desert and that's why
people want to move to the |
| 00:37:52 |
00:37:54 |
oasis.
Yes, but that's my core |
| 00:37:54 |
00:37:58 |
question. Does a tax oasis have
the right to receive money or to |
| 00:37:58 |
00:38:02 |
tax the money that comes from
abroad, from people that are |
| 00:38:02 |
00:38:05 |
residents abroad?
Does a nation have a right to |
| 00:38:05 |
00:38:09 |
attract money magnetically
from other countries? |
| 00:38:09 |
00:38:13 |
No, not the right, not in the 21st
century. That seems to be quite |
| 00:38:13 |
00:38:17 |
clear. Does Switzerland want to
have the same image as the |
| 00:38:17 |
00:38:21 |
Cayman Islands, just to be the
Cayman Islands with snow? I |
| 00:38:21 |
00:38:25 |
think that would be strange. I
think Switzerland can have |
| 00:38:25 |
00:38:28 |
pretensions of being more than
just a tax haven. |
| 00:38:28 |
00:38:31 |
Yes, but it's very
symptomatic. What's the |
| 00:38:31 |
00:38:34 |
subject? It's misfit or model.
Well, Switzerland is made up |
| 00:38:35 |
00:38:38 |
of all sorts of pieces. There's
the economy. We have a very |
| 00:38:38 |
00:38:42 |
good position when it comes to
vocational training. We are |
| 00:38:42 |
00:38:46 |
always taking at a model and
what about the health system in |
| 00:38:46 |
00:38:50 |
the United States Switzerland
always taken as a model |
| 00:38:50 |
00:38:53 |
regarding its health system,
health protection system? |
| 00:38:53 |
00:38:58 |
But let's look at the other case
that's also very interesting and |
| 00:38:58 |
00:39:01 |
in another six minutes, I'll
open up the debate to the |
| 00:39:01 |
00:39:05 |
audience. Democracy, we
haven't really spoken about |
| 00:39:05 |
00:39:08 |
democracy. Switzerland has
always been admired for its |
| 00:39:08 |
00:39:12 |
democracy because its people
can always have its say and |
| 00:39:12 |
00:39:16 |
have a say in the decisions. Is
this seen as a model, as an |
| 00:39:16 |
00:39:18 |
example?
Yes, certainly. If you think |
| 00:39:18 |
00:39:22 |
about it, one has to admit that
Switzerland is a bit of a |
| 00:39:22 |
00:39:26 |
miracle. There's a very strange
blend of minorities. Other |
| 00:39:26 |
00:39:30 |
countries have always had
problems with these ethnic |
| 00:39:30 |
00:39:33 |
groups. I've written a book
about War of the World, and |
| 00:39:33 |
00:39:37 |
Switzerland really is an
exception in European history |
| 00:39:37 |
00:39:40 |
so this is really much more
important than pure |
| 00:39:40 |
00:39:44 |
democracy, is this coexistence
between those who speak |
| 00:39:44 |
00:39:47 |
German and French and the
other languages, and that's |
| 00:39:47 |
00:39:49 |
really an example for the
world. |
| 00:39:49 |
00:39:53 |
So have we found the panacea?
Have you described or started |
| 00:39:53 |
00:39:56 |
the formula?
I don't know whether you have |
| 00:39:56 |
00:39:59 |
but it has to be started by
historians. |
| 00:39:59 |
00:40:02 |
Then there is another problem
because this democracy has |
| 00:40:02 |
00:40:06 |
decided something that has not
really been accepted by the rest |
| 00:40:07 |
00:40:10 |
of the world because it didn't
seem to be very democratic. |
| 00:40:10 |
00:40:14 |
Were you beaten on the next
day at the UN and the next day |
| 00:40:14 |
00:40:18 |
of this vote in Switzerland?
No, no one hit me but in this |
| 00:40:18 |
00:40:22 |
community of 193 nations
where the Islamic countries |
| 00:40:22 |
00:40:25 |
have such a great weight, the
perception was very negative, |
| 00:40:26 |
00:40:29 |
the perception that these other
countries had of Switzerland |
| 00:40:30 |
00:40:33 |
after the vote about the
minarets. However, one also |
| 00:40:33 |
00:40:37 |
has to take the historic stance
and understand that in |
| 00:40:37 |
00:40:40 |
Switzerland, direct democracy
has existed for decades and |
| 00:40:40 |
00:40:44 |
centuries, has created a very
special system guaranteeing |
| 00:40:44 |
00:40:47 |
wellbeing and economic
development and prosperity. |
| 00:40:48 |
00:40:51 |
Even though there may have
been one vote which one may |
| 00:40:51 |
00:40:55 |
not agree with politically, one
cannot question the whole |
| 00:40:55 |
00:40:59 |
system, and I think that is
perhaps the perception that |
| 00:40:59 |
00:41:02 |
many of my colleagues have or
have had abroad, and this is |
| 00:41:03 |
00:41:06 |
something that can be
explained. One can explain |
| 00:41:06 |
00:41:10 |
why such votes come about and
why such a decision is taken by |
| 00:41:10 |
00:41:13 |
the people and that one
shouldn't then question |
| 00:41:13 |
00:41:16 |
fundamentally the very
existence of the country. One |
| 00:41:16 |
00:41:20 |
should not question the
historical acquisitions and what |
| 00:41:20 |
00:41:22 |
has been achieved by this
system. |
| 00:41:22 |
00:41:26 |
Direct democracy, the purpose
of direct democracy is not there |
| 00:41:26 |
00:41:29 |
to confirm simply or
rubberstamp what the |
| 00:41:29 |
00:41:33 |
Parliament has decided. Since
2001, in the case of 74 votes, |
| 00:41:33 |
00:41:37 |
61 times, the people followed
the decision of the Parliament |
| 00:41:37 |
00:41:41 |
but then there are also the other
situations. I am convinced that |
| 00:41:41 |
00:41:45 |
it is in these cases that direct
democracy has a role to play |
| 00:41:46 |
00:41:50 |
because it simply gives voice to
opinions and gives way to these |
| 00:41:50 |
00:41:54 |
opinions, which exist in other
countries but they are never |
| 00:41:54 |
00:41:57 |
expressed because other
countries simply don't have |
| 00:41:57 |
00:41:59 |
such a system of direct
democracy. |
| 00:41:59 |
00:42:04 |
So I feel that we are fortunate
that I belong to those and in the |
| 00:42:04 |
00:42:08 |
majority of the Parliament that
was against this initiative but I |
| 00:42:08 |
00:42:12 |
would never have had the idea
of saying the next day, "How |
| 00:42:12 |
00:42:16 |
are we going to change this or
correct it?" but rather ask |
| 00:42:16 |
00:42:20 |
ourselves, "Why didn't we
know or realize beforehand that |
| 00:42:20 |
00:42:23 |
this vote would go the way it
did? So it's a very, very |
| 00:42:23 |
00:42:27 |
interesting time because we
now have to handle this |
| 00:42:27 |
00:42:31 |
opinion, this public opinion.
What are we going to do with |
| 00:42:31 |
00:42:34 |
this? It's an appeal to the
government and to the |
| 00:42:34 |
00:42:38 |
Parliament. I am convinced that
this same opinion exists in |
| 00:42:38 |
00:42:42 |
other countries but it's simply
not expressed, isn't heard. |
| 00:42:42 |
00:42:46 |
So this is a great advantage that
we have in Switzerland. It's |
| 00:42:46 |
00:42:50 |
also a great challenge and it's a
wonderful challenge for |
| 00:42:50 |
00:42:54 |
politicians to really understand
and perceive very early on in |
| 00:42:54 |
00:42:58 |
the process what the public,
what the population feels and |
| 00:42:58 |
00:43:01 |
thinks, and this is a dialogue
that exists between the |
| 00:43:01 |
00:43:05 |
Parliament, the government,
and the people before, during, |
| 00:43:05 |
00:43:08 |
and after the vote.
On the day after the vote, |
| 00:43:08 |
00:43:12 |
walking through the corridors
of the UN, there is also a great |
| 00:43:12 |
00:43:16 |
difference between what the
colleagues say officially and |
| 00:43:16 |
00:43:20 |
what they tell me when they
drink a cup of coffee with me. |
| 00:43:20 |
00:43:23 |
Mrs. Bruderer said it very
clearly. There are a large |
| 00:43:24 |
00:43:27 |
number of countries and their
representatives who know fully |
| 00:43:28 |
00:43:31 |
well that they have the same
problems as Switzerland and |
| 00:43:31 |
00:43:34 |
that a problem here has
emerged and has, in |
| 00:43:34 |
00:43:38 |
Switzerland at least, been put
on the political agenda that |
| 00:43:38 |
00:43:42 |
perhaps hasn't been done so in
other countries. I agree with |
| 00:43:42 |
00:43:46 |
Mrs. Bruderer that it's an
immense challenge for us to |
| 00:43:46 |
00:43:49 |
explain to the rest of the world
how we go about things in |
| 00:43:50 |
00:43:53 |
Switzerland, how direct
democracy functions and |
| 00:43:53 |
00:43:55 |
operates.
Who would like to put a |
| 00:43:55 |
00:43:59 |
question from the floor? Maybe
you could start raising your |
| 00:43:59 |
00:44:03 |
hands and show if you want to
participate in the discussion. |
| 00:44:03 |
00:44:05 |
Famous last word from Mr.
Simonian. |
| 00:44:05 |
00:44:09 |
Direct democracy is a real
particularity but Switzerland |
| 00:44:09 |
00:44:12 |
has another one and this here,
and we are not here at a |
| 00:44:12 |
00:44:17 |
political meeting and I don't
have the right to vote, but it is |
| 00:44:17 |
00:44:21 |
the Swiss popular party, the
SVP, as the abbreviation is in |
| 00:44:21 |
00:44:24 |
German, is a real strange
animal. I am not saying that |
| 00:44:24 |
00:44:28 |
this vote was below the radar in
the rest of the world but there |
| 00:44:28 |
00:44:32 |
are all sorts of issues, the
minarets and all the others, |
| 00:44:32 |
00:44:36 |
Schengen, and the posters that
have been produced by this |
| 00:44:36 |
00:44:40 |
political party have played a
very important part in the |
| 00:44:40 |
00:44:44 |
perception. And this political
party has really turned all these |
| 00:44:44 |
00:44:47 |
debates into a polemic and has
polarized debate. |
| 00:44:47 |
00:44:51 |
Oh yes, on this subject, of
Schengen and movement, free |
| 00:44:51 |
00:44:54 |
movement, here, the people has
voted in the right way. |
| 00:44:55 |
00:44:57 |
Oh no, but I'm thinking of the
campaigns. |
| 00:44:57 |
00:45:00 |
Well, you mentioned the
campaigns. I didn't. |
| 00:45:00 |
00:45:04 |
Yes, sir? Please remember you
have one minute only to put |
| 00:45:04 |
00:45:07 |
your question.
My name is Fernando Morales |
| 00:45:07 |
00:45:11 |
dela Cruz, and it's very
interesting to hear you talk. But |
| 00:45:11 |
00:45:14 |
if one looks at Switzerland
from outside, one would never |
| 00:45:14 |
00:45:18 |
think that this is a small
country. Even if you only have |
| 00:45:18 |
00:45:22 |
the same amount of people as
Honduras, and you have been |
| 00:45:22 |
00:45:26 |
in the news a bit like Honduras
in the last few months, one |
| 00:45:26 |
00:45:30 |
would have to always say that
you have not always (cross- |
| 00:45:30 |
00:45:32 |
talking) --
We didn't elect the president |
| 00:45:32 |
00:45:35 |
though so --
We didn't. Anyway, one would |
| 00:45:35 |
00:45:39 |
have to say that you're not only
liked, admired, and respected |
| 00:45:39 |
00:45:43 |
but you're also envied, and this
is something that we have to |
| 00:45:43 |
00:45:47 |
think about because it's a
competitive world out there |
| 00:45:47 |
00:45:51 |
and there are some people who
would like to eat you, not only |
| 00:45:51 |
00:45:55 |
your chocolates and drink your
milk or cheese, but they would |
| 00:45:55 |
00:45:59 |
like to have your share of the
pharmaceutical industry, your |
| 00:45:59 |
00:46:02 |
share of the intellectual
property, your share of |
| 00:46:02 |
00:46:06 |
knowledge, and your share of
patents and trademarks. |
| 00:46:06 |
00:46:09 |
And I think beyond the
financial center, which is of |
| 00:46:09 |
00:46:13 |
course a global player, you're
already a global country. The |
| 00:46:13 |
00:46:17 |
question is being a global
country, as IBM was global 15 |
| 00:46:17 |
00:46:21 |
years ago, are you willing to
reinvent yourself as IBM forgot |
| 00:46:21 |
00:46:25 |
to and perhaps you have to start
to reinvent yourself while |
| 00:46:25 |
00:46:29 |
you're still ahead because you
are definitely ahead? Your |
| 00:46:29 |
00:46:33 |
knowledge is impressive and as
Mrs. Bruderer-Wyss pointed |
| 00:46:33 |
00:46:36 |
out, your vocational schools are
exceptional. |
| 00:46:36 |
00:46:39 |
Well, a number of excellent
points. It is the question of |
| 00:46:39 |
00:46:44 |
envy. Obviously, a student who
is at the top of class is likely to |
| 00:46:44 |
00:46:48 |
be the subject of envy. Is that a
historical problem? Those |
| 00:46:48 |
00:46:52 |
countries that come top of the
class are not treated friendly? |
| 00:46:52 |
00:46:56 |
No, and that is not the problem.
The problem is when you lose |
| 00:46:56 |
00:47:00 |
your advantages that get you
there, there, therein lies the |
| 00:47:00 |
00:47:04 |
question. Is Swiss still going to
be in an enviable position at the |
| 00:47:04 |
00:47:08 |
end of this century? There is no
sure answer to that because |
| 00:47:08 |
00:47:11 |
obviously, there is an
extraordinary level of |
| 00:47:11 |
00:47:15 |
competition in the world today.
After 500 years of Western |
| 00:47:15 |
00:47:19 |
dominance, suddenly, we find
that there is the possibility that |
| 00:47:19 |
00:47:23 |
the engine of growth in the
world economy, for the first |
| 00:47:23 |
00:47:28 |
time in centuries, shifts to Asia,
to India, to China. The world is |
| 00:47:28 |
00:47:31 |
changing very quickly and
Switzerland cannot stand, aside |
| 00:47:31 |
00:47:36 |
from all of these processes, but
what can you do if the whole of |
| 00:47:36 |
00:47:39 |
the West is losing importance?
Well, yes, the world is |
| 00:47:39 |
00:47:43 |
changing. Obviously, what we
need to do is change as well, |
| 00:47:43 |
00:47:47 |
reinvent ourselves, not because
we want to still be enviable. |
| 00:47:47 |
00:47:51 |
We don't want to be envied by
others but we feel that we have |
| 00:47:51 |
00:47:55 |
a role, a voice in the world for
human rights, for -- we're |
| 00:47:55 |
00:47:59 |
serving as an intermediary
between countries with |
| 00:47:59 |
00:48:02 |
problems. That's in terms of
foreign relations. And at the |
| 00:48:02 |
00:48:06 |
domestic level, we want to be a
country that works which |
| 00:48:06 |
00:48:10 |
provides opportunity for its
citizens with a good education |
| 00:48:10 |
00:48:14 |
and health system. That's the
reason why you're absolutely |
| 00:48:14 |
00:48:17 |
right and we cannot say that
there is no need for |
| 00:48:17 |
00:48:20 |
fundamental change. I believe
that there is. |
| 00:48:20 |
00:48:24 |
I would say that we need a
form of government in which |
| 00:48:24 |
00:48:27 |
we can believe that's a
legitimate question. The |
| 00:48:27 |
00:48:31 |
Parliament believes that. I
believe that. Our government is |
| 00:48:31 |
00:48:35 |
burdened with operative tasks.
Now, obviously, it needs to be |
| 00:48:35 |
00:48:39 |
but it doesn't have the space
for strategic space for strategic |
| 00:48:39 |
00:48:43 |
considerations and planning
and I think it needs this space. |
| 00:48:43 |
00:48:47 |
It needs the time for that space
and that's why we need a |
| 00:48:47 |
00:48:49 |
reform.
Yes, I agree that this is |
| 00:48:49 |
00:48:53 |
important to stay as innovative
and competitive as possible |
| 00:48:53 |
00:48:57 |
economically and that one has
to reinvent one's self |
| 00:48:57 |
00:49:01 |
continuously. That's also true
in politics. Switzerland is a |
| 00:49:01 |
00:49:04 |
country that in the past few
years has increasingly given |
| 00:49:04 |
00:49:08 |
itself a global policy, a global
profile. We have many assets. |
| 00:49:09 |
00:49:11 |
Mrs. Bruderer has just
enumerated them. |
| 00:49:11 |
00:49:15 |
But please bear in mind the
difference between IBM and |
| 00:49:15 |
00:49:19 |
Switzerland, for example, the
discrepancy between economic |
| 00:49:19 |
00:49:22 |
globalization and political
space that we have, this is |
| 00:49:22 |
00:49:26 |
something that has to be
discussed again and again fresh |
| 00:49:26 |
00:49:30 |
and reinvented and you don't
do it in the same way when you |
| 00:49:30 |
00:49:34 |
come from IBM, a company
that has board of directors and |
| 00:49:34 |
00:49:37 |
that can position itself on the
world market. |
| 00:49:37 |
00:49:41 |
The political dynamics between
integration and the political |
| 00:49:41 |
00:49:45 |
system, the way people think
and believe, their traditions and |
| 00:49:45 |
00:49:49 |
so on, the way they experience
globalization, their fears, their |
| 00:49:49 |
00:49:53 |
expectations, this is the big
challenge. But I do agree with |
| 00:49:53 |
00:49:57 |
the question you put and your
idea, I think it was very well |
| 00:49:57 |
00:50:01 |
put. It's exactly here that one
has to reinvent one's self. |
| 00:50:01 |
00:50:04 |
Mr. Sarkozy, you saw
yesterday, he said that France |
| 00:50:04 |
00:50:08 |
can do it differently because
it's a centralized state but |
| 00:50:08 |
00:50:12 |
maybe there is no following at
the popular level. When you |
| 00:50:12 |
00:50:16 |
say that Switzerland should
reinvent itself, you, Mr. |
| 00:50:16 |
00:50:19 |
Thielemann, may say that
Switzerland should do so as an |
| 00:50:19 |
00:50:22 |
ethical example.
Yes, that would be great |
| 00:50:22 |
00:50:26 |
because Switzerland does have
the potential. Just to come back |
| 00:50:26 |
00:50:30 |
to direct democracy once more,
one should work on this |
| 00:50:30 |
00:50:34 |
democratic cultural -- I don't
think that direct democracy is |
| 00:50:34 |
00:50:38 |
simply to throw in to the voting
box one's preferences. One |
| 00:50:38 |
00:50:41 |
also has to think about this
fundamentally. |
| 00:50:41 |
00:50:44 |
I'm going to spoil the game
here and question this issue of |
| 00:50:45 |
00:50:48 |
integration. Switzerland, I
don't think, will be able to |
| 00:50:48 |
00:50:53 |
reinvent itself ethically if it just
puts the economy at the center |
| 00:50:53 |
00:50:56 |
of interest. I think the
government, the state has to see |
| 00:50:57 |
00:51:00 |
to it that cohabitation is fair
and just, not only at the |
| 00:51:00 |
00:51:05 |
national level but also at the
international level, cohabitation |
| 00:51:05 |
00:51:09 |
with other countries, and not
only to see what will it give us, |
| 00:51:09 |
00:51:13 |
what can we extract from it,
what is our profit. The banking |
| 00:51:13 |
00:51:17 |
secrecy is not just Switzerland.
There are other aspects as well. |
| 00:51:17 |
00:51:21 |
Then the gentleman at the back
of the hall standing up and who |
| 00:51:21 |
00:51:25 |
is now getting the microphone.
I work in development |
| 00:51:25 |
00:51:28 |
corporation in India and in
Africa. When you talk about |
| 00:51:28 |
00:51:32 |
minarets and the votes, one
may not forget that a large |
| 00:51:32 |
00:51:36 |
majority of the population
simply said no because of the |
| 00:51:36 |
00:51:40 |
fear of a further exporting of
weapons to Pakistan, and this is |
| 00:51:40 |
00:51:44 |
something that should be raised
again in this discussion before |
| 00:51:44 |
00:51:48 |
the vote of the 29th of
November. The University of |
| 00:51:48 |
00:51:52 |
St. Gallen fortunately has this
institute of ethics in economics |
| 00:51:52 |
00:51:56 |
and is a very interesting and
has a leadership position in |
| 00:51:56 |
00:52:00 |
making us think about ethics in
the economy. There has been |
| 00:52:00 |
00:52:04 |
some warning signals in the
past. Mr. Behr (phonetic), for |
| 00:52:04 |
00:52:07 |
example, said about banking
secrecy and tax evasion and |
| 00:52:07 |
00:52:11 |
fraud is like making a
distinction between whether |
| 00:52:11 |
00:52:14 |
one is allowed to kill one's
mother or only one's mother- |
| 00:52:14 |
00:52:17 |
in-law.
Now, I have a question for Mr. |
| 00:52:17 |
00:52:21 |
Maurer regarding the UN. The
millennium goal is to half |
| 00:52:21 |
00:52:24 |
extreme poverty by 2015, and
we would like Switzerland to |
| 00:52:24 |
00:52:28 |
do something about that
because it's in our constitution. |
| 00:52:28 |
00:52:32 |
So what are you doing to make
sure that we reach this goal, |
| 00:52:32 |
00:52:36 |
also to make sure that extreme
wealth is also halved so that we |
| 00:52:36 |
00:52:40 |
can reach this goal? Perhaps he
could give us his opinion on |
| 00:52:40 |
00:52:42 |
this.
I am there to represent the |
| 00:52:43 |
00:52:47 |
political programs and policies
of the Swiss government and I |
| 00:52:47 |
00:52:50 |
do that at the UN and you
know the UN is very |
| 00:52:50 |
00:52:53 |
committed to development
cooperation both at the |
| 00:52:53 |
00:52:57 |
practical, pragmatic, and
political level. We support the |
| 00:52:57 |
00:53:00 |
UN funds and programs. We
make sure that development |
| 00:53:00 |
00:53:04 |
and cooperation work is very
effective. We do that at the |
| 00:53:04 |
00:53:08 |
World Bank. We always look
for better solutions for and in |
| 00:53:08 |
00:53:11 |
development and cooperation
work. The Millennium |
| 00:53:11 |
00:53:15 |
Development Goals are really
the yardstick for Switzerland |
| 00:53:15 |
00:53:17 |
both in bilateral and
multilateral terms. |
| 00:53:18 |
00:53:21 |
Do you think that more should
be done? Is the gentleman |
| 00:53:21 |
00:53:23 |
right?
Yes, indeed, one should do |
| 00:53:23 |
00:53:27 |
much more towards reaching
all of these goals and objectives |
| 00:53:27 |
00:53:31 |
and it is perhaps a point of
dispute. Development and |
| 00:53:31 |
00:53:35 |
cooperation is not just a matter
of transferring money. |
| 00:53:35 |
00:53:38 |
Obviously, it's part of the
development and cooperation |
| 00:53:38 |
00:53:42 |
goals. Most of the highly
industrialized countries have |
| 00:53:42 |
00:53:46 |
not succeeded in doing this
since 2000, are not actually |
| 00:53:46 |
00:53:50 |
practicing what they preach,
have not followed the rules of |
| 00:53:50 |
00:53:53 |
the provisions. But in the
development goals, it is |
| 00:53:53 |
00:53:57 |
mentioned very clearly that the
developing countries have to |
| 00:53:57 |
00:54:01 |
make an effort when it comes
to good governance and human |
| 00:54:01 |
00:54:05 |
rights and democratic practices.
So all those involved are |
| 00:54:05 |
00:54:09 |
certainly not on course, are not
in a satisfactory way, and that |
| 00:54:09 |
00:54:13 |
is why Mr. Collier has to write
this book about the billions and |
| 00:54:13 |
00:54:17 |
unfortunately, we will not be
reaching all the goals despite |
| 00:54:17 |
00:54:19 |
the efforts.
(Inaudible) (1:09:40) |
| 00:54:20 |
00:54:23 |
Yes, we got it. We got it. We
know what should be done. |
| 00:54:23 |
00:54:27 |
Well, between knowing what
has to be done and political |
| 00:54:27 |
00:54:30 |
consensus in the community of
nations, there is a big |
| 00:54:30 |
00:54:34 |
difference. But we feel that we
are one of the important |
| 00:54:34 |
00:54:38 |
countries, as members of the
UN, who are working hard on |
| 00:54:38 |
00:54:42 |
getting this political consensus.
You also put this question of |
| 00:54:42 |
00:54:46 |
the ethical side. This is a
question of justice and equal |
| 00:54:46 |
00:54:50 |
chances, opportunities, and
resources. This is something |
| 00:54:50 |
00:54:53 |
that will overtake us if we
don't find the answer to this |
| 00:54:53 |
00:54:57 |
question. Here we are at this
podium and we might have had |
| 00:54:57 |
00:55:01 |
even greater problems at that
time and we do now. The |
| 00:55:01 |
00:55:04 |
Millennium Development
Goals is something that we see |
| 00:55:04 |
00:55:08 |
everyday. It's like a mirror we
look into everyday and we |
| 00:55:08 |
00:55:11 |
cannot avoid these problems or
achieve these goals. |
| 00:55:12 |
00:55:15 |
May I ask the Anglo-Saxons
here whether for Switzerland, |
| 00:55:15 |
00:55:19 |
this would be a USP, the
unique selling position that we |
| 00:55:19 |
00:55:22 |
are the best and the most
generous state, we are |
| 00:55:22 |
00:55:26 |
precursors, we are trailblazers
in these political issues? |
| 00:55:26 |
00:55:30 |
One has to be careful. It's not
quite certain that development |
| 00:55:30 |
00:55:34 |
aid really helps. Mr. Arroyo
(phonetic) was here last year. I |
| 00:55:34 |
00:55:38 |
know that cuckoo clock was a
bit tempestuous in its ringing. |
| 00:55:38 |
00:55:42 |
You hadn't even spoken a
couple of seconds. It's not a |
| 00:55:42 |
00:55:46 |
Swiss clock. It's a clock that
was made in the Black Forest. |
| 00:55:46 |
00:55:49 |
No, probably in China.
The book entitled Dead Aid |
| 00:55:49 |
00:55:53 |
says that before you send more
millions to Africa, read this |
| 00:55:53 |
00:55:56 |
book by Dambisa Moyo.
Theory about development aid |
| 00:55:56 |
00:56:00 |
is changing at present and it's
an important change that is |
| 00:56:00 |
00:56:04 |
happening. More can be
obtained through investment |
| 00:56:04 |
00:56:08 |
than through development aid
and that, too, is a challenge for |
| 00:56:08 |
00:56:10 |
Switzerland.
Yes, but you are kind of |
| 00:56:10 |
00:56:14 |
sidestepping the ultimate goal.
You can quibble about the |
| 00:56:14 |
00:56:18 |
method but the investments
would have to be done in a |
| 00:56:18 |
00:56:21 |
very consistent way. It's not a
question of whether |
| 00:56:21 |
00:56:25 |
Switzerland should be best or
first, but Switzerland should be |
| 00:56:25 |
00:56:29 |
able to mobilize and motivate
others. Only something will |
| 00:56:29 |
00:56:33 |
happen if everyone pulls on the
same oar so Switzerland should |
| 00:56:33 |
00:56:36 |
be a role model.
I don't think that quantity is the |
| 00:56:36 |
00:56:40 |
yardstick or the volume. It may
be positive but it shouldn't |
| 00:56:40 |
00:56:44 |
come first. If I may just
respond to the gentleman who |
| 00:56:44 |
00:56:48 |
put the first question, envy. I'm
not a historian. My colleague |
| 00:56:48 |
00:56:52 |
has the long-term perspective.
I'm just the short-term |
| 00:56:52 |
00:56:55 |
journalist who writes from
today to tomorrow. I've had |
| 00:56:55 |
00:56:59 |
contacts with those who are
involved in promotional work |
| 00:56:59 |
00:57:03 |
in the 26 cantons and they try
and get companies from abroad |
| 00:57:03 |
00:57:06 |
to come and set up in
Switzerland. A big |
| 00:57:06 |
00:57:10 |
multinational decided to move
its headquarters to Geneva to |
| 00:57:10 |
00:57:14 |
Zurich and I learned, which is
just one of the examples that |
| 00:57:14 |
00:57:18 |
used to be the host of this
multinational, of course, wasn't |
| 00:57:18 |
00:57:21 |
very happy about that so you
shouldn't be too successful |
| 00:57:21 |
00:57:24 |
either.
There are many inequalities. |
| 00:57:24 |
00:57:28 |
There are regions that are
disadvantaged and others that |
| 00:57:28 |
00:57:31 |
are at an advantage. So is fiscal
competition a good thing |
| 00:57:31 |
00:57:34 |
locally, internationally? Is it
amoral? |
| 00:57:34 |
00:57:38 |
Let's ask the ethicist.
I wouldn't say that it's amoral. |
| 00:57:38 |
00:57:42 |
What we are talking about here
is not a kind of competition |
| 00:57:42 |
00:57:45 |
that deserves the name
"competition." People need to |
| 00:57:45 |
00:57:49 |
emigrate or move from their
country to another country and |
| 00:57:49 |
00:57:53 |
therefore, it isn't legitimate.
It's a competition of services or |
| 00:57:53 |
00:57:57 |
performance. Migration of
capital is another thing. But as |
| 00:57:57 |
00:58:01 |
to this fiscal competition or
competition of fiscal services, |
| 00:58:01 |
00:58:05 |
one has to be aware you know
there is a cantonal competition |
| 00:58:05 |
00:58:09 |
but this is within a framework
and it is a competition between |
| 00:58:09 |
00:58:14 |
services and it attracts people
from one country into another. |
| 00:58:14 |
00:58:17 |
But I would agree this, even
such a competition, a fiscal |
| 00:58:17 |
00:58:22 |
competition or a competition in
fiscal services is always in the |
| 00:58:22 |
00:58:25 |
interest of higher income
groups and cantonal |
| 00:58:25 |
00:58:28 |
repayments would not change
this. But one should put this |
| 00:58:28 |
00:58:32 |
question to politicians. Why is
it such a good thing this |
| 00:58:32 |
00:58:36 |
competition between fiscal
services? Maybe it's simply |
| 00:58:36 |
00:58:39 |
because one doesn't trust
cantonal governments to take |
| 00:58:39 |
00:58:42 |
the right decisions. Mr.
Maurer? |
| 00:58:42 |
00:58:45 |
I was also going to say the
following. I wouldn't give an |
| 00:58:45 |
00:58:50 |
ethical response but for as long
as it is seen in such political |
| 00:58:50 |
00:58:54 |
terms, it's legitimate and it will
simply happen. It will exist. |
| 00:58:54 |
00:58:57 |
You mentioned the word
"rules" or "laws" and I think |
| 00:58:57 |
00:59:01 |
that is exactly the point. One
has to find international rules |
| 00:59:02 |
00:59:05 |
and legislation regarding
taxation and fiscal conditions. |
| 00:59:05 |
00:59:09 |
Even in Switzerland, there is
no harmonization so internally, |
| 00:59:09 |
00:59:13 |
there is already a lot of
competition between the |
| 00:59:13 |
00:59:17 |
cantons. I think that is the main
challenge, as I mentioned |
| 00:59:17 |
00:59:19 |
earlier on.
I don't want to give the |
| 00:59:19 |
00:59:23 |
impression that the Swiss
government or administration |
| 00:59:23 |
00:59:26 |
lives in an ivory tower and has
illusions about the banking |
| 00:59:27 |
00:59:30 |
secrecy continuing to exist in
the same way for another 15 |
| 00:59:30 |
00:59:34 |
years. I think everyone has
recognized that if Switzerland |
| 00:59:34 |
00:59:38 |
wants to remain innovative and
reinvent itself and remain a |
| 00:59:38 |
00:59:42 |
financial center with a good
reputation, changes have to be |
| 00:59:42 |
00:59:44 |
made.
Now, the cuckoo clock is |
| 00:59:44 |
00:59:48 |
telling me that we have to
make very short statements by |
| 00:59:48 |
00:59:51 |
way of conclusion.
Exchange of information is not |
| 00:59:51 |
00:59:55 |
fiscal harmonization. It's a
question of fiscal autonomy of |
| 00:59:55 |
00:59:59 |
states that has to be preserved.
One should have different |
| 00:59:59 |
01:00:02 |
fiscal systems but one doesn't
have to push fiscal |
| 01:00:02 |
01:00:04 |
harmonization to such an
extent. |
| 01:00:04 |
01:00:08 |
I like my function as the
president of the National |
| 01:00:08 |
01:00:12 |
Council but it also keeps me a
bit captive. The Parliament |
| 01:00:12 |
01:00:16 |
feels that it's a good thing, but
my personal opinion may be a |
| 01:00:16 |
01:00:20 |
bit different. I'm going to
express it here. I think it can |
| 01:00:20 |
01:00:24 |
only be healthy within a certain
range and this spiral which |
| 01:00:24 |
01:00:28 |
turns askew again and again,
which is something we feel in |
| 01:00:28 |
01:00:31 |
Switzerland, we know is
leading to tension and |
| 01:00:31 |
01:00:35 |
inequalities, which is not in the
interest of a healthy country. |
| 01:00:35 |
01:00:39 |
So this is my personal opinion
but officially, the Parliament is |
| 01:00:39 |
01:00:43 |
backing this fiscal competition,
but of course, the people will |
| 01:00:43 |
01:00:46 |
decide itself what it feels about
this. |
| 01:20:46 |
01:20:50 |
Well, tax competition doesn't
create inequality, that's wrong. |
| 01:20:50 |
01:20:54 |
It's the free market economy
which creates inequality. |
| 01:20:54 |
01:20:58 |
That's how the world works.
The question is if taxes is so |
| 01:20:58 |
01:21:02 |
high, whether you are not in the
name of social justice, does |
| 01:21:02 |
01:21:05 |
growth suffer? That's the
problem for all developed |
| 01:21:05 |
01:21:09 |
countries. Order please. This is
a difficult balance to strike but |
| 01:21:10 |
01:21:13 |
fair competition does help and
it protects us in England, in |
| 01:21:14 |
01:21:17 |
particular, from this danger.
The English Parliament always |
| 01:21:17 |
01:21:20 |
has heckles as well so please
let him finish. |
| 01:21:20 |
01:21:24 |
That's all I have to say.
Well, when I was here six years |
| 01:21:24 |
01:21:28 |
ago, I had no idea that there
were 26 cantons or indeed, that |
| 01:21:28 |
01:21:31 |
there were different taxes
between cantons and |
| 01:21:31 |
01:21:35 |
communities. I live in a
relatively low tax community |
| 01:21:35 |
01:21:39 |
on the right bank of the Lake of
Zurich but I live there for a |
| 01:21:39 |
01:21:43 |
reason. People said that Zurich
is 10th the size of Berlin and |
| 01:21:43 |
01:21:47 |
you had to be careful about not
having a school on one side of |
| 01:21:47 |
01:21:51 |
the lake and your house on the
other, so that's why we chose |
| 01:21:51 |
01:21:55 |
where to live. But later, a very
well known Swiss banker who |
| 01:21:55 |
01:21:59 |
has been in charge of a well
known German bank for the |
| 01:21:59 |
01:22:03 |
last couple of years said, "We
live in K�snacht and my office |
| 01:22:03 |
01:22:07 |
is in safe health and the school
is around the corner," and he |
| 01:22:07 |
01:22:10 |
said, "Yes, it's a very good
idea, low taxes." |
| 01:22:10 |
01:22:14 |
And then one question from the
person in the light blue shirt. |
| 01:22:14 |
01:22:18 |
Well, my name is Martin
Kauffer. I regret that the |
| 01:22:18 |
01:22:22 |
discussion has avoided certain
questions from representatives |
| 01:22:22 |
01:22:26 |
of the Federation and a Swiss
university. The word "banking |
| 01:22:26 |
01:22:29 |
secrecy" was used. There is no
banking secrecy. You can go |
| 01:22:29 |
01:22:33 |
out and walk into any bank,
where you will be well |
| 01:22:33 |
01:22:36 |
received. What the secrecy is
about is banking customer. |
| 01:22:37 |
01:22:41 |
What's being protected is the
private sphere of the customer. |
| 01:22:41 |
01:22:45 |
And if I were asked, I think for
a long time, the Swiss will not |
| 01:22:45 |
01:22:48 |
want to do away with it
because if it's a question of |
| 01:22:48 |
01:22:52 |
what shares I've traded this
morning, it has nothing to do |
| 01:22:52 |
01:22:56 |
with the Tax Office. There is
no tax on share price rises, no |
| 01:22:56 |
01:23:00 |
capital gains tax. And there are
many reasons for people to |
| 01:23:00 |
01:23:04 |
come to Switzerland, not just
capital flight, but also people |
| 01:23:04 |
01:23:08 |
who have not found themselves
protected by the tax authorities. |
| 01:23:09 |
01:23:13 |
They come to Switzerland for
this kind of protection of their |
| 01:23:13 |
01:23:17 |
private sphere. I think there are
many young people here today |
| 01:23:17 |
01:23:20 |
and I think it's wrong to
address these issues of banking |
| 01:23:21 |
01:23:23 |
customer secrecy in this
negative term. |
| 01:23:23 |
01:23:26 |
I understand what you're
saying. It's a semantic |
| 01:23:26 |
01:23:30 |
question. It was just an
abbreviation but you're saying |
| 01:23:30 |
01:23:34 |
that there are good reasons for
the citizens to remember the |
| 01:23:34 |
01:23:36 |
purpose.
Well, yes. And no, it is a |
| 01:23:36 |
01:23:40 |
question of the wrong words
being used. Banking secrecy is |
| 01:23:40 |
01:23:44 |
not actually a secrecy of
banking. It's banking customer |
| 01:23:44 |
01:23:48 |
secrecy which was introduced
for very good reasons and it's |
| 01:23:48 |
01:23:51 |
your home country that wanted
to do that. |
| 01:23:51 |
01:23:55 |
I didn't say banking customer
secrecy but what I did try and |
| 01:23:55 |
01:23:59 |
do was to outline the various
elements of banking secrecy or |
| 01:23:59 |
01:24:02 |
bank customer secrecy to show
that there are certain |
| 01:24:02 |
01:24:06 |
distinctions that need to be
made in the various functions |
| 01:24:06 |
01:24:10 |
of it and I believe that for the
population of Switzerland, it's |
| 01:24:10 |
01:24:14 |
very important to clearly
distinguish which areas of |
| 01:24:14 |
01:24:17 |
banking customer secrecy are
under pressure and what |
| 01:24:17 |
01:24:21 |
changes might be made in the
future, what protection of |
| 01:24:21 |
01:24:24 |
private sphere is.
We cannot spend much more |
| 01:24:24 |
01:24:26 |
time discussing this, but very
briefly. |
| 01:24:26 |
01:24:30 |
You talked about the private
sphere. I don't know why |
| 01:24:30 |
01:24:33 |
capital income is not
discriminated and revenue |
| 01:24:33 |
01:24:36 |
income, salary income is
because this is completely |
| 01:24:36 |
01:24:40 |
transparent for taxes. Now,
what cannot be done is to use |
| 01:24:40 |
01:24:44 |
these benefits to escape the
measures in other countries. |
| 01:24:44 |
01:24:48 |
Yes, that was my point indeed
and it's something that we need |
| 01:24:48 |
01:24:51 |
to reflect upon. It brings $20
billion in revenues. |
| 01:24:52 |
01:24:55 |
Well, we see that there is a
broad range of views and it |
| 01:24:55 |
01:24:59 |
goes from right to left or
perhaps the other way around. |
| 01:24:59 |
01:25:03 |
So final question, do we need
to, and quickly, is there a fire in |
| 01:25:03 |
01:25:06 |
the Swiss house?
Well, I can't answer. I'm not a |
| 01:25:06 |
01:25:10 |
diplomatic. I'm just talking
about the ethical aspect, and |
| 01:25:10 |
01:25:13 |
the ethical aspect is that
refusing to exchange |
| 01:25:13 |
01:25:16 |
information, under any
circumstances, is not |
| 01:25:16 |
01:25:20 |
justifiable. I think that
Switzerland should stand up |
| 01:25:20 |
01:25:24 |
and say that it is willing to do
so. We have the same problem |
| 01:25:24 |
01:25:28 |
as we did in the '70s, where the
Federal Council said it's not |
| 01:25:28 |
01:25:32 |
something that can be justified.
But parts of the Swiss |
| 01:25:32 |
01:25:36 |
population do believe that it is
possible. We need to work |
| 01:25:36 |
01:25:40 |
towards the recognition of the
fact that it's illegitimate to not |
| 01:25:40 |
01:25:42 |
exchange information.
Mr. Maurer. |
| 01:25:42 |
01:25:46 |
I think I've clearly stated what
I wanted to say on this subject. |
| 01:25:47 |
01:25:50 |
I think that bank customer
secrecy, I agree absolutely with |
| 01:25:50 |
01:25:54 |
what you said, it was purely a
convenient abbreviation that I |
| 01:25:55 |
01:25:58 |
was using. I think it's coming
under international pressure. |
| 01:25:59 |
01:26:02 |
We have a problem of
perception and I think it's good |
| 01:26:02 |
01:26:06 |
to address the issues which are
being put under pressure and |
| 01:26:06 |
01:26:10 |
look towards the future and
I've hinted at what direction |
| 01:26:10 |
01:26:13 |
that could take.
Well, with regard to this |
| 01:26:13 |
01:26:16 |
discussion, as Ambassador
Maurer has said, we need to |
| 01:26:16 |
01:26:20 |
take an active role. We can
construct the way ahead and I |
| 01:26:20 |
01:26:24 |
think that we have an important
financial center and we can |
| 01:26:24 |
01:26:27 |
participate. We can take an
offensive position in the |
| 01:26:27 |
01:26:31 |
discussions ahead and it is
better to be proactive than |
| 01:26:31 |
01:26:35 |
reactive. Apart from the points
that have just been mentioned, |
| 01:26:35 |
01:26:39 |
we also need to recognize the
full width of our foreign |
| 01:26:39 |
01:26:43 |
relations. It's not just taxes and
finance. We have a very broad |
| 01:26:43 |
01:26:47 |
range of activities. We do very
good work and we do that both |
| 01:26:47 |
01:26:51 |
externally and internally.
I think internally as well, |
| 01:26:51 |
01:26:55 |
domestic level, there are other
areas. We're facing increasing |
| 01:26:55 |
01:26:59 |
unemployment. We need to
take that seriously. We need to |
| 01:26:59 |
01:27:02 |
take the people seriously and
now that we've dealt perhaps |
| 01:27:03 |
01:27:07 |
with the urgent situation of the
economy, we need to deal with |
| 01:27:07 |
01:27:10 |
the urgent situation of people
facing unemployment, and |
| 01:27:10 |
01:27:13 |
that's the direction for our
country. |
| 01:27:13 |
01:27:16 |
A very provocative historian
that we have with us today. |
| 01:27:17 |
01:27:19 |
Perhaps you could give us a
provocative tip. |
| 01:27:19 |
01:27:24 |
Well, first of all, apologies for
my German. At least I tried it. |
| 01:27:24 |
01:27:28 |
It was very difficult. What the
main question for me is, for the |
| 01:27:28 |
01:27:32 |
future of this country, is does
Switzerland belong to Europe? |
| 01:27:32 |
01:27:36 |
We have not said anything
about the European Union. I |
| 01:27:36 |
01:27:40 |
find that very surprising. Does
this country belong to Europe |
| 01:27:40 |
01:27:44 |
or does it belong amongst the
Caribbean islands or should it |
| 01:27:44 |
01:27:47 |
go into partnership with
Iceland outside Europe? |
| 01:27:47 |
01:27:50 |
Are you talking about the
membership of the EU or not |
| 01:27:50 |
01:27:53 |
from an institutional
perspective? |
| 01:27:53 |
01:27:57 |
I just find it very surprising that
we haven't mentioned it at all. |
| 01:27:57 |
01:27:59 |
That's the main question for
me. |
| 01:27:59 |
01:28:02 |
That's something we have to
think about. |
| 01:28:02 |
01:28:06 |
Well, as the final speaker, I
won't be very original but I'll |
| 01:28:06 |
01:28:10 |
try to summarize. What makes
up a country's image is very |
| 01:28:10 |
01:28:14 |
complicated. Obviously, it's
made up of multiple factors, |
| 01:28:14 |
01:28:18 |
not just humanitarian aid or
banking secrecy. Switzerland is |
| 01:28:18 |
01:28:21 |
facing huge challenges and
whether they are greater today |
| 01:28:22 |
01:28:25 |
than they were in the past, I'm
not sure because I'm not a |
| 01:28:25 |
01:28:29 |
historian, but I do know that
the challenges are major |
| 01:28:29 |
01:28:32 |
challenges.
Once, I said that the words |
| 01:28:32 |
01:28:35 |
"imagination" and "Swiss
government" are not worthy to |
| 01:28:35 |
01:28:39 |
be seen together in the same
sentence. I can only support |
| 01:28:39 |
01:28:43 |
Mrs. Bruderer and say that
Switzerland needs to use its |
| 01:28:43 |
01:28:47 |
imagination. It needs to work
proactively in order to take up |
| 01:28:47 |
01:28:50 |
its place in the world.
Thank you very much. Thank |
| 01:28:50 |
01:28:54 |
you to the excellent panelists.
Well, we need to move on. The |
| 01:28:54 |
01:28:58 |
cuckoo clock's sellers showed
imagination. I see that there is a |
| 01:28:58 |
01:29:02 |
question to adjust here. Maybe
we can adjust our democracy |
| 01:29:02 |
01:29:06 |
and you can adjust from a
cuckoo to a Big Ben (laughter), |
| 01:29:06 |
01:29:10 |
but it's not working so we have
problems in Switzerland and |
| 01:29:10 |
01:29:14 |
it's been very exciting to talk
about them all. Thank you very much. |
